Advice please ! Integrating....

[Ben9]

Hello! I am new to this forum, i am purchasing a 42 pilothouse which has zero electronics... I would really like some advice if possible!!

I want to be able to cost effectively (as cheap as possible, but with good quality, reliable systems etc) buy everything and interface together... Chartplotter, autopilot, radar, sonar, fish finder, wind, engine management and everything and anything else ?

Also.. thoughts on output to laptop or ipad?

Help! I think i need a modular system, so i can add to it over time, i guess starting with chart, auto pilot, radar etc ... Anyone have experience? Or any recommendations would be really appreciated!

[ranger58sb]

Read everything you can about pros/cons of the major brands.

Two schools of thought: 1) pick the best instruments in each class, integrate as best you can. 2) pick a single maker, get all your stuff from them. (I usually gravitate toward the latter for nav electronics. Then choose VHF from best VHF makers.)

Compare dedicated MFD virtues (waterproof, bright) to laptop/tablet virtues (portable). (I prefer both. Would NOT/NOT rely on a laptop/tablet as primary... but many do.)

I do like using both built-in MFDs, plus laptop, plus tablets. Some systems make that easier than others (e.g., Furuno TZ Touch MFDs, TimeZero on laptops, TZ iBoat on iThings) but there are also several mix-'n'-match possibilities out there. Wi-Fi is making data sharing easier. (For example, we can control our TZT MFD with apps on our tablets.)

Ignore initial component cost, within reason. A few dollars here and there, amortized over a long lifespan when you buy the best, isn't worth too much angst.

Are you capable of installing yourself? Willing? If so, one modular approach is to map out your to-be finished system, then gradually install parts of that as $$ allows. (When you read about high-dollar electronics suites, often much of the high dollar part comes from labor hours.)

Several MFD offerings these days include compatibility with radar and sonar/fishfinder, engine management display, maybe wind too. That doesn't mean you'd actually have to install the radar antenna (for example) right away, could add that later. Et cetera.

-Chris

[Ben9]

Originally Posted by ranger58sb

Read everything you can about pros/cons of the major brands.

Two schools of thought: 1) pick the best instruments in each class, integrate as best you can. 2) pick a single maker, get all your stuff from them. (I usually gravitate toward the latter for nav electronics. Then choose VHF from best VHF makers.)

Compare dedicated MFD virtues (waterproof, bright) to laptop/tablet virtues (portable). (I prefer both. Would NOT/NOT rely on a laptop/tablet as primary... but many do.)

I do like using both built-in MFDs, plus laptop, plus tablets. Some systems make that easier than others (e.g., Furuno TZ Touch MFDs, TimeZero on laptops, TZ iBoat on iThings) but there are also several mix-'n'-match possibilities out there. Wi-Fi is making data sharing easier. (For example, we can control our TZT MFD with apps on our tablets.)

Ignore initial component cost, within reason. A few dollars here and there, amortized over a long lifespan when you buy the best, isn't worth too much angst.

Are you capable of installing yourself? Willing? If so, one modular approach is to map out your to-be finished system, then gradually install parts of that as $$ allows. (When you read about high-dollar electronics suites, often much of the high dollar part comes from labor hours.)

Several MFD offerings these days include compatibility with radar and sonar/fishfinder, engine management display, maybe wind too. That doesn't mean you'd actually have to install the radar antenna (for example) right away, could add that later. Et cetera.

-Chris

Thank you Chris !

[Bill O]

Start with OpenCPN and add on components from there. Very powerful, open shareware (free) which rivals the brand name base electronics.
Similar as suggested by Ranger, would use a RaspberryPi as your base computer inside at you nav station, then wifi to a laptop to the cockpit.
The Rpi, can also do autopilot, as well as interface with radar (we have a Halo 20+) and other sensor packages.

[sailingharry]

You mentioned sonar and fish finder. Neither of those tend to be common on sailboats, so you may not get much feedback about those systems here.

Originally Posted by ranger58sb

2) pick a single maker, get all your stuff from them.

Compare dedicated MFD virtues (waterproof, bright) to laptop/tablet virtues (portable). (I prefer both. Would NOT/NOT rely on a laptop/tablet as primary... but many do.)

I do like using both built-in MFDs, plus laptop, plus tablets. Some systems make that easier than others (e.g., Furuno TZ Touch MFDs, TimeZero on laptops, TZ iBoat on iThings) but there are also several mix-'n'-match possibilities out there. Wi-Fi is making data sharing easier. (For example, we can control our TZT MFD with apps on our tablets.)

The need to pick a single vendor is very old advice. With the Advent of n2k, everybody's equipment works flawlessly together. Even old equipment through translators works wonderfully. On my last boat, I ran a Garmin gps (NMEA 0183), a Ray Marine autopilot (Seatalk I), B& G displays (N2K), and Airmar sensors for depth, speed, and wind (N2K) and it all worked flawlessly together from the first time I powered it up. On my new boat, it came to me with a Furuno chart plotter/radar (N2K, 0183, and Ethernet), a Quark GPS receiver (N2K), very old Ray depth, speed, wind, (all SeaTalk I), and a Nauticast AIS (0183). I added a Quark 0183 to Wi-Fi translator. It all works flawlessly together.

The mix and match of devices is good advice. I can get most of my information on my cell phone, my tablet, and my laptop. It is nice, but very much an unusual thing. From anywhere in my cockpit, I can see most of the numbers that matter, depth, wind, speed, course, and with the push of a button some additional information. The chartplotter at the helm provides a large, bright, rugged, easily controlled in a seaway and rain. I certainly don't see a need to control my chartplotter from my cell phone! But if I am sitting below and want to see what the wind is blowing, my cell phone is convenient. And on rare occasions, I will lay out a course for the next day on my laptop and push it to the chartplotter.

A note on the Furuno and TZ. If you are staying in the US, this is a brilliant system. Of special note, they format and make available NOAA charts for the US for free. Unfortunately, outside the US, the only chart system they provide is C-Map, which at least in Canada is useless to the point of dangerous.

Originally Posted by Bill O

Start with OpenCPN and add on components from there. Very powerful, open shareware (free) which rivals the brand name base electronics.

OpenCPN is brilliant. But a few comments.
* It is only "open" on laptops. On a cell phone or tablet, your choice is a dated free system (which I use) or a proprietary pay version if you want it maintained and updated.

* Open CPN is a chart-plotter solution. It provides no instrumentation or data. You still need to buy a depth and speed system, a wind system, a radar system, and if you want engine instrumentation included some sort of data source for that. And unlike my comments above about interoperability, it is much harder with OpenCPN -- radar in particular is a challenge. The point is that the only part of a electronic suite that opens CPN solves is the chartplotter. You still need all of the sensors and inputs. And if you want dedicated displays (cabin side read out of depth, speed, wind, etc) or a dedicated autopilot control with push buttons, those still need to be purchased as well.

* My father used PC based navigation on his pilot house motor sailor. I was and am jealous! But it is important to note that a sailboat and a pilot house motor sailor are very different. I have never seen a PC based navigation system that provides the rugged all weather functionality of a chartplotter mounted on the binnacle. I had an extremely scary exit from Yarmouth, NS (Canada), in the dark and rain where my Furuno with C-Map provided no useful data and Navionics on my cell phone would not work in the rain.

* Putting together a commercially provided system is expensive, but very much within the realm of a competent DIY installer. Trying to work together the parts to assemble a Pi and tie it into an openCPN system is a bit of a science project (although on a standalone laptop or tablet, it is quite straightforward). Pulling together all the information to build your own autopilot is even more of a challenge. And unfortunately, I haven't found too many step by step tutorials. For me, it has been a bridge too far.

[Bill O]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

OpenCPN is brilliant. But a few comments.
* It is only "open" on laptops. On a cell phone or tablet, your choice is a dated free system (which I use) or a proprietary pay version if you want it maintained and updated.

* Open CPN is a chart-plotter solution. It provides no instrumentation or data. You still need to buy a depth and speed system, a wind system, a radar system, and if you want engine instrumentation included some sort of data source for that. And unlike my comments above about interoperability, it is much harder with OpenCPN -- radar in particular is a challenge. The point is that the only part of a electronic suite that opens CPN solves is the chartplotter. You still need all of the sensors and inputs. And if you want dedicated displays (cabin side read out of depth, speed, wind, etc) or a dedicated autopilot control with push buttons, those still need to be purchased as well.

* Putting together a commercially provided system is expensive, but very much within the realm of a competent DIY installer. Trying to work together the parts to assemble a Pi and tie it into an openCPN system is a bit of a science project (although on a standalone laptop or tablet, it is quite straightforward). Pulling together all the information to build your own autopilot is even more of a challenge. And unfortunately, I haven't found too many step by step tutorials. For me, it has been a bridge too far.

Harry,

I generally agree w/your comments, except opencpn is more than a base chart plotter. If you use it to it's full potential, it is much more than a plotter and has an N2K interface built in.
Like all other commercial base systems, you need to add sensors (wind, depth, AIS, radar, etc.). All this can be integrated into the Rpi backbone.
Our Halo 20+ radar was pretty much a plug and play into the RJ45 port. Not a challenge at all and works well.
Our below deck hydraulic AP is run by the pypilot program in opencpn and again works well. It can be controlled independently by a phone, laptop or at the nav. station.

Agree getting a waterproof display at the binnacle can be expensive, but can be done. We do not have a binnacle display, but have our display under the protection of the dodger where we spend most of our time while underway.
I'm not even good at coding/computer programing and can get opencpn to work well. It's not that hard.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

The need to pick a single vendor is very old advice. With the Advent of n2k, everybody's equipment works flawlessly together. Even old equipment through translators works wonderfully.

I'd agree, old advice, but I believe still legit. I'd also quibble with adding words like flawlessly or wonderfully...

But FWIW, I still more often choose one maker because a) it's easier shopping, b) any differences aren't huge enough for me to care about, and c) that way I only have to get inside one GUI-designer's head.

Mix-and-match can be better to eke out the very last byte of navigational goodness... but I'm not worried about that, not my goal, more interested in boating than in engineering an electronics suite.

Everyone else's MMV.

-Chris

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by Bill O

Harry,
If you use it to it's full potential, it is much more than a plotter and has an N2K interface built in.

Curious how the N2K is implemented. 0183 is easy, as the signal layer is essentially identical to PC serial bus, and you can simply connect the wire to a serial port (well, in today's world, a serial dongle). But in N2K, I would think a hardware adapter is needed --and even then, I suspect the hardware adapter outputs 0183 sentences.

Originally Posted by Bill O

Our Halo 20+ radar was pretty much a plug and play into the RJ45 port. Not a challenge at all and works well.

That may be becoming more and more a true statement. I am not certain, but I am fairly certain that my Furuno radar is not supported. It does use RJ45, but it is at least a decade old. I think openCPN is becoming more complete with support for modern radars, but it is far from universal.

QUOTE=Bill O;3788877]
Our below deck hydraulic AP is run by the pypilot program in opencpn and again works well. It can be controlled independently by a phone, laptop or at the nav. station.[/QUOTE]

This one is one that would worry me. I use my autopilot, a lot. Having big physical keys easy to reach is critical. I reach over and push auto, and it's on. If I glance up and see a lobster pot 100 ft ahead, I stab standby and spin the wheel. When I am forward working on setting the spinnaker, I can holler to my wife "Plus 50" and she pushes the +10 five times. An autopilot that requires working with a screen, or a mouse would scare me.
QUOTE=Bill O;3788877]
Agree getting a waterproof display at the binnacle can be expensive, but can be done. We do not have a binnacle display, but have our display under the protection of the dodger where we spend most of our time while underway.
[/QUOTE]
This one is actually a bit of a frustration with our new boat. We really don't spend that much time behind the wheel, which is where the GPS is. But when we are in a narrow channel, it's where I want it. On our last boat, it was a 5 in GPS on a swivel mount which allowed it to be effective when in front of or behind the wheel. I do miss that!

QUOTE=Bill O;3788877]
I'm not even good at coding/computer programing and can get opencpn to work well. It's not that hard.[/QUOTE]

Getting openCPN up and running on a laptop is super easy. Connecting it to an existing instrumentation Network, and 2K or 183, is fairly easy. But the idea that opencpn is a free and easy alternative to a full scale electronic suite upgrade misses the several thousand dollars in parts that are needed to support it. I'm not even sure if it saves any money, because a radar dome alone is not much less then I radar / chartplotter bundled package.

And pypilot as an autopilot solution is a significant undertaking. As you and I have discussed previously (as you tried to lead me through the forest!), it is not simply a case of downloading the program to a computer. You need to suss out power supplies, rpi, relays, and the assorted parts to connect the computer program to your choice of drives. A well-written step by step design discussion complete with a detailed parts list for a typical installation would be exceptionally helpful!

[JPA Cate]

We have preferred to keep everything separate, for two reasons:

1) you don't lose all your electronic input when one item fails;

and

2) Having something bright, even when filled with interesting information, at night in the cockpit, knocks my night vision all to h--l. Keeping watch as best you can is extremely important, especially in crowded areas, and I think cockpit MFD's interfere. But then, we were crossing oceans using celestial navigation, and I think it trained us to be very aware of paying attention to the information the sky can give us.

Life is not counting coup via electronics competitions, at least for me.

Ann

[Bill O]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

Curious how the N2K is implemented. 0183 is easy, as the signal layer is essentially identical to PC serial bus, and you can simply connect the wire to a serial port (well, in today's world, a serial dongle). But in N2K, I would think a hardware adapter is needed --and even then, I suspect the hardware adapter outputs 0183 sentences.


Again not that good at it, so can't explain to you in depth how that works.


That may be becoming more and more a true statement. I am not certain, but I am fairly certain that my Furuno radar is not supported. It does use RJ45, but it is at least a decade old. I think openCPN is becoming more complete with support for modern radars, but it is far from universal.


Yes, you are correct it can't do them all, but the newer radars use much less power these days, have better features and better definition than older radar units.




QUOTE=Bill O;3788877]
Our below deck hydraulic AP is run by the pypilot program in opencpn and again works well. It can be controlled independently by a phone, laptop or at the nav. station.

This one is one that would worry me. I use my autopilot, a lot. Having big physical keys easy to reach is critical. I reach over and push auto, and it's on. If I glance up and see a lobster pot 100 ft ahead, I stab standby and spin the wheel. When I am forward working on setting the spinnaker, I can holler to my wife "Plus 50" and she pushes the +10 five times. An autopilot that requires working with a screen, or a mouse would scare me.


Stand by, course adjustment, tacking, etc. all work the same w/a touch screen. If I take the phone w/me forward, I don't even need to yell to my wife for a course adjustment, I could do it from the fore deck and make minor adjustments as needed.



QUOTE=Bill O;3788877]
Agree getting a waterproof display at the binnacle can be expensive, but can be done. We do not have a binnacle display, but have our display under the protection of the dodger where we spend most of our time while underway.
[/QUOTE]
This one is actually a bit of a frustration with our new boat. We really don't spend that much time behind the wheel, which is where the GPS is. But when we are in a narrow channel, it's where I want it. On our last boat, it was a 5 in GPS on a swivel mount which allowed it to be effective when in front of or behind the wheel. I do miss that!

QUOTE=Bill O;3788877]
I'm not even good at coding/computer programing and can get opencpn to work well. It's not that hard.[/QUOTE]

Getting openCPN up and running on a laptop is super easy. Connecting it to an existing instrumentation Network, and 2K or 183, is fairly easy. But the idea that opencpn is a free and easy alternative to a full scale electronic suite upgrade misses the several thousand dollars in parts that are needed to support it. I'm not even sure if it saves any money, because a radar dome alone is not much less then I radar / chartplotter bundled package.


Buying our Halo 20+ stand alone was much cheaper than buying the Zeus monitor packaged w/the radar unit. The other sensors that we have that just plug into the Rpi are stand alone unit that you would need to purchase separately anyway.


And pypilot as an autopilot solution is a significant undertaking. As you and I have discussed previously (as you tried to lead me through the forest!), it is not simply a case of downloading the program to a computer. You need to suss out power supplies, rpi, relays, and the assorted parts to connect the computer program to your choice of drives. A well-written step by step design discussion complete with a detailed parts list for a typical installation would be exceptionally helpful![/QUOTE]


When we got together previously, the walk through of our set up was very quick and somewhat of an overview. When we started putting our "nav. system" together a few years back, we didn't have much on the way of instructions. We barely knew what a raspberry pi was but were able to assemble it. It all works very well and isn't as expensive as you think.


I believe I provided you w/these links, but here they are again.
https://phoenixketch.blogspot.com/2019/01/building-marine-navigational-computer.html
https://phoenixketch.blogspot.com/2019/01/pypilot-open-source-marine-autopilot.html

The instructions of how we did it in our write ups are most likely antiquated since the downloading of opencpn is much easier now.

[stevead]

My $0.02 worth.

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