Aground at Elbow Cay

[edhuckle]

Hello, my wife and I have read most of this very long series of responses. We cannot understand why no one is talking about whether they had a handheld GPS or the ability to get lat and Lon from their phone. Long before we should be talking about using a sextant we should understand why they didn't have a battery operated handheld GPS?

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Actually Cruisers Forum was the reason I ended up with an unwanted tow.. despite my saying no further assistance was required beyond the fresh water dropped off by the container ship as my tanks were contaminated, which by the way was transmitted over the radio by the captain of the ship and received by the Portuguese CG.. but.. gotta make a dollar or two boy.. and a private illegal tow was arranged without my knowledge or consent!!!
The criticism if I remember was about my ingratitude and being totally pissed off about it and saying so.. up until then everyone was wondering how I was dodging the systems and saying what great progress I was making till I hit light winds.. learnt to be picky about putting my Spot out from that trip.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ry-120845.html

I can understand why you'd object to them panicking just because you made slow progress in light winds near the end of the trip, but before you left Fort Lauderdale I do think you should have interrupted your pub crawling long enough to do a proper "preflight" to avoid setting out with a load of contaminated water that you were depending on to use for drinking water. I'm all for drinking good beer and I even brew some myself but there's a time and place for everything and reading back over the first several pages of that thread, there's a lot there describing your pub crawls and different brands of beer you were drinking and how much you drank, but almost nothing about the time you were spending going over the boats systems that you would need to be in working condition in order to complete the delivery. Some of the issues that caused you problems could have happened even if you'd done a thorough inspection but some of them could have been easily avoided if you'd been paying attention even a little bit. For example, if there was any doubt about the water in the tanks being bad it would be pretty easy to either drain and clean them out and refill them at the dock or a small expense to board enough bottled drinking water to get you across. Instead, your failure to adequately inspect the boat and prepare for the voyage caused a container ship to stop or turn around, drop some water off to you, and then accelerate back up to speed. I don't know what the hourly cost is to run a container ship but I bet your failure to carry enough drinking water cost the owner of that ship a LOT more than the tow cost you and probably more than the total cost of the delivery. Maybe he's "prickly" about that, or after your "adventure" did you contact him and insist on reimbursing him in full for the trouble and expense his ship and crew went to in order to benefit you? Of course any ethical skipper would stop to render aid to any vessel at sea that needed it and not charge that vessel for the aid rendered, but there's no getting around that it cost someone significant $$$ to stop and give you the water you needed to complete your voyage, and since in that thread you mentioned what this debacle cost you, it ought to be mentioned the costs to others that were incurred due to the way you conducted your preparation for this voyage.

Also, you accepted the tow and as the skipper aboard the boat that's your prerogative, not the owner and not anybody here on CF. CF speculation and overreaction may have instigated it and the owner may have "arranged" it but you accepted it.

Sometimes $%^& happens and we all make mistakes, but you'd have a lot more credibility if, in addition to talking about your good weather avoidance instincts and things you did right, you owned your mistakes rather than pretending you did nothing wrong and all the things that went wrong on YOUR crossing were somebody else's fault or the boats fault or the SPOT's fault, or....

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

I can understand why you'd object to them panicking just because you made slow progress in light winds near the end of the trip, but before you left Fort Lauderdale I do think you should have interrupted your pub crawling long enough to do a proper "preflight" to avoid setting out with a load of contaminated water that you were depending on to use for drinking water. I'm all for drinking good beer and I even brew some myself but there's a time and place for everything and reading back over the first several pages of that thread, there's a lot there describing your pub crawls and different brands of beer you were drinking and how much you drank, but almost nothing about the time you were spending going over the boats systems that you would need to be in working condition in order to complete the delivery. Some of the issues that caused you problems could have happened even if you'd done a thorough inspection but some of them could have been easily avoided if you'd been paying attention even a little bit. For example, if there was any doubt about the water in the tanks being bad it would be pretty easy to either drain and clean them out and refill them at the dock or a small expense to board enough bottled drinking water to get you across. Instead, your failure to adequately inspect the boat and prepare for the voyage caused a container ship to stop or turn around, drop some water off to you, and then accelerate back up to speed. I don't know what the hourly cost is to run a container ship but I bet your failure to carry enough drinking water cost the owner of that ship a LOT more than the tow cost you and probably more than the total cost of the delivery. Maybe he's "prickly" about that, or after your "adventure" did you contact him and insist on reimbursing him in full for the trouble and expense his ship and crew went to in order to benefit you? Of course any ethical skipper would stop to render aid to any vessel at sea that needed it and not charge that vessel for the aid rendered, but there's no getting around that it cost someone significant $$$ to stop and give you the water you needed to complete your voyage, and since in that thread you mentioned what this debacle cost you, it ought to be mentioned the costs to others that were incurred due to the way you conducted your preparation for this voyage.

Also, you accepted the tow and as the skipper aboard the boat that's your prerogative, not the owner and not anybody here on CF. CF speculation and overreaction may have instigated it and the owner may have "arranged" it but you accepted it.

Sometimes $%^& happens and we all make mistakes, but you'd have a lot more credibility if, in addition to talking about your good weather avoidance instincts and things you did right, you owned your mistakes rather than pretending you did nothing wrong and all the things that went wrong on YOUR crossing were somebody else's fault or the boats fault or the SPOT's fault, or....

Whoa... back up dude..
If light hearted banter leaves you with an impression of a 'Pub Crawl' I reckon you lack a life.. or a pub crawl means a lot less in your world.. we worked all day and went to the 'Downtowner' each evening for a meal and I grabbed a couple or three beers at most.. my partner/crew does not drink and the grief is not worth the fourth beer.
As to the types.. yes I tried their IPA.. but then went to the only other beer mentioned Yuengling.

As for the water.. we drained the tanks before filling however as the owners had been living on board the previous 3mths had no reason to think there would be a problem.. so loaded bottled for Lena while I made do with what we put in the tanks.

As to your crap about the cost to me.. I never made mention about cost to me.. I made mention of the charge for a 40 mile tow and the fact I was getting pestered by the Belgian to give him the work.. all it cost me was an enforced stay of over 20days.

As for my accepting the tow.. the owner had already been put in a big enough panic by the barrage of e-mails saying he was about to lose his boat if a rescue was not mounted straight away and induced to pay out an initial deposit of 1500 euro's..
My options were either accept the tow or keep going on my own.. either way the owner would not get his money back.. little did I know he'd be banged for another 2 grand.. else I may just have refused.
Also.. why did this 'Angel of Mercy' not gives my position or Spot page link to the CG.. or anyone else on CF come to that.. like you maybe.. if your brain is as in gear as you make out, once the wooden spoon had started stirring up the crap.. seem to remember you being one of the posters.
That's what rescue services are for.. but no.. dash off and grab the nearest cowboy you know. What a joke.


As to mistake.. none that I am aware.. unexpected/unexplainable things happened, the electrician could not find what caused the problem that made the batteries dump.. the generator was solved when I went online and downloaded the 'codes' and the engines were declared sound by the Navy inspector.. the electrician cost 100 euro and the Navy inspection was 35 euro. that was the extent of 'repair costs'

Basically you have not a clue what was or was not done before I set out.. You just feel a need.. having found a seeming good excuse in the early posts to vent some bile.. vent away pal.. it may ease the ulcers..

Maybe you should contact the owner and ask him what was really happening behind the scenes of the so called rescue.. and then what he thought of my services and the condition of the boat when he arrived in Almerimar.

No..??? or are you happier just being a bitch about someone else's capabilities.

[Paul L]

Here's the ASCAT wind speeds in the area on Jan 7. Looks like they would have seen consistent high 30's with plenty of low 40's out of the N if they were in this band.

[steamgoat]

Awesome thread drift!! A boat aground on Elbow Key to boaties beer habits.

[boatman61]

Oh..!!! and regarding the ship Paria.. I made contact while he was around 10m away and asked if he could put some 2L bottles of water in an empty potato sack and tie it off with an empty cooking oil container as a marker and I'd pick it up after he'd passed.. he choose/insisted on coming round and stopping to make the RAS..
Also.. regulations compelled him to make the radio call stating my position and that I required no assistance and was proceeding under my own power.
I have had to sail into Horta before.. an easy entrance with plenty of room if one needs to do any tacking and its possible to anchor there.. in fact I had to do that in 2016 with Elsie as there were no free berths.. stayed on the hook for nearly a week before a berth came free.

[Vasco]

Originally Posted by boatman61

As to the types.. yes I tried their IPA.. but then went to the only other beer mentioned Yuengling.

Did you try the Yeungling Black and Tan? It's quite good.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Southern Star

Boatman , in retrospect you are probably right, but for all we know that may have been their plan until they suffered engine/electrical failure. At that point I’m sure the Abacos seemed a safe refuge and they could have effected repairs in Marsh Harbour or Man o’ War Cay, before continuing on to Florida. And of course, there would be no put/putting up the ICW without a diesel.
Cheers!

Brad

Brad.. by going to the South I meant the channel between Cuba and the Bahama's.. with the current and prevailing winds.. in the wind picture above you can see they would have been riding before the wind and likely not had the engine problem which in most likelihood was down to fuel being bounced around and becoming very dirty.. but that bit about the fuel is speculation.
But hey.. what do I know

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Vasco

Did you try the Yeungling Black and Tan? It's quite good.

Tried it when I was in Oriental back in '04/5.. but preferred the standard brew.. Porter style beers upset my stomach even tho' I like the taste.

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Brad.. by going to the South I meant the channel between Cuba and the Bahama's.. with the current and prevailing winds.. in the wind picture above you can see they would have been riding before the wind and likely not had the engine problem which in most likelihood was down to fuel being bounced around and becoming very dirty.. but that bit about the fuel is speculation.
But hey.. what do I know

I'd guess that the weather you're seeing on the grib would also have a North component in the pass between Bahamas and Florida.... not where I would want to be with the wind against the Gulf Stream.

Matt

[weavis]

Yuengling lager was the beer of choice for me in the States.
Black and tan not so much.
Thats what Guinness is for.

[weavis]

My beer taste of preference is English Bitter.
Also Irish Guinness.

Here in Seville Spain the local beer is Cruzcampo. A lager. Most places is all you can get. It took me a year to become accustomed to it... its OK for my palate now...

You can get used to anything if you have to...

[JPA Cate]

I was the only holdout on CF who said at the time, we didn't know what was going on, but we should trust the skipper to make the necessary call if he thought assistance was necessary. What happened was one of those times when with the best of intentions, people over-stepped the traditional boundaries and that over-stepping brought down a lot of grief.

But that's really ancient history, now, and lacks relevance to the issue of the Westsail on the beach.

For those of you who haven't spent much time at sea, these people were northbound, back to the States, and where they could safely have left the island group to windward, they got caught on a lee shore. It was also a cascade of events, leading to the boat going ashore. Such cascades are not uncommon. Most people don't know enough about sailing to know they need to cultivate a profound respect for the problems the sea can cause you. Fatigue due to rough weather can lead to lots of problems in and of itself.

Someone above pointed out that for each of our boats, there exists an ocean state where we will not be able to sail close hauled enough to claw off a lee shore. I think that is true. It is why old skippers usually are extremely conservative. Some of us more than others. He was within 3 miles of the island group, I would have been 5 miles off. It is a lot bigger margin for safety.

Also, the Westsail skipper had the option of turning back, going off the wind, till the storm blew out. It is mentally a very hard thing to do, to give up your northing that you have struggled for, but that, too, could have saved their boat. This happened to us one time, and we had a difficult trip; someone who stayed south had a much faster and more pleasant one.

The Westsail skipper has paid a grievous price.



Ann

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by funjohnson

I'd guess that the weather you're seeing on the grib would also have a North component in the pass between Bahamas and Florida.... not where I would want to be with the wind against the Gulf Stream.

Matt

But if they'd taken that route they would have had the advantage off land based comms re weather and likely their progress would have been faster than it was.. and there's always the Florida Cays to dive into to wait things out.. or get towed into.. whereas they put themselves in a place where the only escape was East, or South and into the lee of the Bahama's and a beam reach up the channel there to Freeport.. but then without knowing their passage plan its just speculation.. did they have an escape plan?
I was not called 'Turnaround Phil' in Oriental for nothing..

[weavis]

Originally Posted by boatman61

But if they'd taken that route they would have had the advantage off land based comms re weather and likely their progress would have been faster than it was.. and there's always the Florida Cays to dive into to wait things out.. or get towed into.. whereas they put themselves in a place where the only escape was East, or South and into the lee of the Bahama's and a beam reach up the channel there to Freeport.. but then without knowing their passage plan its just speculation.. did they have an escape plan?
I was not called 'Turnaround Phil' in Oriental for nothing..

Isnt boating about being as safe as you can? After weighing all the factors and the odds, skip has to decide what is safe for the boat himself and the crew... Cant tell you the times Ive had to lose all the gains made by painful tacking when a storm blew up...

Still here to turn around yet once more...