Are paper charts as a backup still necessary?

[Helia 44]

My Insurance MANDATES the carrying of paper charts as a backup...

I have double stations of full Garmin, and Navionics on my IPhone...

But look, our ridiculous dependence on electronic charts is scary. IMO in a National Emergency, War, the satellites would be the first to go.. I would not want to navigate without at least the charts, with reefs and islands and rocks, at least the charts will set your course. If I was going offshore, even a Sextant is not silly..

Further, on storage: They roll up altogether, and if you put them in a nice watertight tube they can be stored just about anywhere. I only carry my range of travel, and will add more if that range expands.

Kind regards, Helia 44, now Blessed to be on a SABA 50..

[Van Der Beek]

Originally Posted by seadago

Found an interesting arcticle on Boating magazine on the topic. Link below.

https://www.boatingmag.com/surviving...ting-0#page-28

Some excepts below:

"One in 1,000 Boats Are Hit by Lightning Per Year
BoatU.S. gathered insurance claim data from a 10-year period and found that the odds of being struck are about one in 1,000 in any given year (see below for a breakdown by boat type). Location, however, matters a great deal. Florida accounted for 33 percent of all claims, and the Chesapeake Bay area accounted for 29 percent.

Boat Type - Chances per 1,000
Multihull Sail - 9.1
Auxiliary Sail - 4.5
Cruiser - 0.86
Sail Only - 0.73
Trawlers - 0.18
Bass Boat - 0.18
Runabout - 0.12
Houseboat - 0.11
Pontoon - 0.03
PWC - 0.003

Boating Magazine"

.... which is far, far greater overall than I ever expected!

Also:

"A Microwave Oven is a Faraday Cage
Anything inside a Faraday cage is safe from lightning. Automobiles, airplanes and microwave ovens are examples of Faraday cages. Stow backup handhelds, laptops and other electronics inside the microwave to protect them during an electrical storm. Just wrapping them in tinfoil can also do the trick.

Boating Magazine"

Does anyone have experience/expertise to validate the statement above. Seems somewhat far fetched to me....

Thanks!

I use an aluminum briefcase and a few EMP bags instead, it's much better to have backups prestored IMO than running around throwing "stuff" into the microwave.

[captchetco]

My wife had 20 year as a commercial fisherperson midPacific mostly (own 65' boat), and I have been cruising since 2005, and lots of coastal sailing experience since age 18, and we have been cruising Mex and CA for 10 years together. Neither of us feels comfortable going into an unfamiliar entrance without a current paper chart.

There are times, lots of them, when you are entering an unfamiliar port in adverse conditions, sea break, cross currents, poor visibility when you are "white knuckling it" in and need to be constantly able to accurately place yourself, sometimes within a few feet, which requires frequent looks at the chart for some "landmark" and back again at the water, and then again at the chart. The visual transition is much quicker and more certain on paper than having to visualize your position compared to a risk which may require a pan or zoom, to even be on your plotter. We always also have the chart plotter on, on a maximum zoom in, because it places you in the channel veryquickly and usually accurately.

We no longer carry current low detail wide area charts, but the old ones are still on board. this is because when at sea, there are few non-moving hazards, and you should have your destination Lat Lon available in your log and other places, so even without a chart, you can find the Sea Buoy, and use paper to enter. You should be aware that both electronic and large area charts frequently do not show local hazards unless you zoom in.

Before setting out, and again well before arriving at an entrance, you should memorize and hazards to your approach. Is there a reef 20 miles off shore? Set your course, and write it in the log, so you will widely miss it. Widely, because wind and current set can change your intentions very greatly, and are not fully predictable.

The reason is that with a chartplotter, we have had a number, and have two in use at all times, one has to keep zooming in and out taking a few seconds to reorient with each zoom or pan. With paper, all the info is before you at all times with no reorientation needed. Paper has given us a much greater feeling of security and has at least saved us from a heart attack if not a crash.

Barb and I strongly recommend having high detail paper charts for all ports you may want or need to enter.

[seadago]

Originally Posted by Van Der Beek

I use an aluminum briefcase and a few EMP bags instead, it's much better to have backups prestored IMO than running around throwing "stuff" into the microwave.

... no to mention the posibility of cooking some gadget in the rush to warm up your cup of tea!

But I agree, a couple of nested aluminium boxes with insulation material in between maybe the best protection achievable.

[sailingharry]

As I read through this, I find several points worth commenting:


* Paper charts as a backup, ie if suddenly all electronics fail, is not a yes/no answer. Most of us can easily afford 2,3,5 wide area paper charts, that can help you DR (who thinks a 5 day old DR is +/- 50 miles?) to a major port. Or use Celestial, or whatever. I remember my first, unexpected, entry into St. John, New Brunswick, Canada in 1976, using nothing but a chart that ended at the outer marks. We worked our way in from there on mostly common sense and the general lay of the wide scale chart. But that doesn't automatically include carrying the entire chart set from Canada to Mexico.


* A complete loss of all electronics includes a loss of all digital timepieces, so make sure you carry a mechanical clock, with current accurate time and a rate sheet, if that is your concern. On most oceans, I'd be more worried about Longitude accuracy than Latitude, as you are usually sailing east west, and running into things (ie, land) at night is kind of poor form.


* Someone mentioned other countries expecting/demanding charts with clear tracks marked. Wow, that would be good to know. In my waters, even back in the 70's as a kid, we rarely if ever actually plotted a fix. Even outside our waters, come to think of it. Most coastal piloting is very easy to do by saying "just passed this lighthouse, head 255, should see a mark in 1/2 hour or so." Usually, you even see it right off. Even today, I can do the 30 mile trip to St. Michaels without "needing" to look at my plotter. Obviously, weather conditions, uncertain waters, longer courses, etc can require more rigor, but it's not always necessary.



* The thread has often confused "backup" and "primary." Some posters talk about having a chart in a roll (gack -- roll charts -- NEVER! Fold them. Otherwise, you can't use them! Try and plot a bearing or 3 on a chart that's been rolled for 2 months sometime). That's fine for a backup. Others talk about looking at them while entering a harbor -- that's not a "backup" I don't think. It's maybe part of your normal operations.


* Some have talked about the crazy chart plotter putting you on land when you clearly aren't. That's not exactly an electronics "problem" It's a paper chart problem made clear by the accuracy of the GPS. The paper chart has the same error. But, until you know exactly where you are on earth (Lat/Lon) you never knew the chart was wrong. Both do require you to look at the land, look at the chart.


* Some have said insurance "requires updated paper charts." That's mighty vague to say the least. What scale chart? Chart books, or "official charts?" Wait, the US no longer produces "official charts" so we're in trouble if that's the requirement! Updated meaning how current? Pen and ink NOTAMs, or just a certain publication date? And, if in the attempt to use the paper chart on a windy rainy night in the cockpit it blew over 10 minutes before you hit that rock, is the insurance no longer in force? I'd really want to read that part carefully, and consider changing carriers.



* As I stress in a course I teach on charts, there are no digital charts. Sure, RNC and ENC charts are digital -- but my point is that 100% of chart plotters (that I know of, at least) simply make a digital representation of a paper chart. The display is essentially identical to the paper chart it came from -- no more, no less.

[MainMan]

Originally Posted by Paul L

You should keep enough paper charts to safely make harbor with a loss of your chart plotters in mo.
For us that means keeping an offshore chart that shows the large area. We then typically have some chartlets in guide books that would get us inside. So it only takes a few charts for the South Pacific run.

Having large area offshore charts also makes it easier to do some long term passage planning. You can see a lot more than a cramped chartplotter screen.

Cramped? Most yachties have moved onto zoomable 12 in colour monitors now a days
But you still need charts - one suggestion if you like electronics is to have (most people choose an alternative nav. software) on a tablet or second laptop - but gou must know how you will keep that powered up abreast of your boat electrics.

I love (paper) charts but I cant afford them for all the places Ive planned, besides they all require updating almost regularly.

Yes they do take up space but when you use them that becomes less of a bother. There'll be many other things you will get rid of along your travels but charts are never one of them.

Copy other yachties charts at the local library etc
Bon Voyage!

[boatman61]

I remember back in the 90's copying charts for areas I was heading to garnered from folks returning from where I was headed.. Gib was good for charts heading into and out of the Med.. much is made about up to date charts but for many areas its not that important.. naural features dont change much and mans bits and bobs shifting now and then common sense and experience compensates.. still use some charts that are over 20yrs old.
The phoocopied charts are great fun.. box of crayons and you've hours of fun colourizing them on long legs..

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

* As I stress in a course I teach on charts, there are no digital charts. Sure, RNC and ENC charts are digital -- but my point is that 100% of chart plotters (that I know of, at least) simply make a digital representation of a paper chart. The display is essentially identical to the paper chart it came from -- no more, no less.

Except when they're not.

I've seen vector charts that didn't include a few fixed nav aids that were on the source raster chart.

Wasn't a big deal, but they weren't identical.

-Chris

[SeanPatrick]

Most of the replies in this thread are about paper, DR and/or celestial as a backup to GPS, which makes sense since that's the OP's question. Sure ... lightning strikes, water damage, EMPs and even failure of the GPS constellation are all possible - however unlikely. But I think there is another reason for using paper/DR/celestial which is worth mentioning.


There is a saying that the prudent navigator uses ALL available sources of information to confirm their position. Is it acceptable during coastal nav to keep your eyes constantly glued to the chart plotter/radar, or should you also use the old Mk.1 eyeball to physically look for the various ATONs and hazards? I hope your answer is the latter. GPS is a wonderful thing, and most of the time it's reliable. But sometimes it isn't. There even seems to be more and more instances lately of GPS signals being spoofed - for whatever reason. GPS signals are actually very weak and easily jammed or spoofed.


An article dated Jan. 20th, 2016 from the Maritime Accident Casebook had this to say:

This past summer, multiple outbound vessels from a non-U.S. port suddenly lost GPS signal reception. The net effect was various alarms and a loss of GPS input to the ship’s surface search radar, gyro units and Electronic Chart Display & Information System ECDIS, resulting in no GPS data for position fixing, radar over ground speed inputs, gyro speed input and loss of collision avoidance capabilities on the radar display.
[...]
Positioning signals may be impacted by interference from both natural and human-made sources. The most common types of interference are reception issues, usually due to bad installations, poor antenna positioning or faulty equipment. Jamming devices, while illegal in the U.S. and a threat to safety, have been used for nefarious or deceptive purposes.
Interference can also be unintentionally caused when operating GNSS in close proximity to other radiating devices, such as amplified TV antennas. Therefore, it is important to remember to use all available means for navigation and maintain proficiency so you can still navigate should your primary GPS fail.

So, what about when there are no ATONs in sight? Can you rely 100% on your GPS position? Probably. But if something does goes wrong, how will you know? Plotting your position - DR, celestial fix or both - on a paper chart may be your first, or only indication.


Just something to think about.

[dannc]

Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster

... But most diesels can be set up to run happily with no electricity until they are out of fuel.

You did say most, and I won't quibble if the word should be most, some or many.

One of the problems with the latest JD computerized diesels is that they require power to operate and I doubt other brands are different. We talked to some JD representatives back 2014 about what happens if there is no power to the engine and the answer is it won't run. The newer engines require fuel, air AND power. Take away one of the three and the engine won't run.

A lightning strike can kill a modern, computerized engine multiple ways.

Later,
Dan

[dannc]

Regarding Faraday cages, microwaves, ammo boxes, etc for lightning protection.

I read a book I found on Amazon about protecting against EMP. The author was an EE and hopefully knew what he was talking about.

A problem with using a microwave is that it is not a fully enclosed metal container. It might stop EMP most of the time but it is not going to stop EMP 100% of the time. Ammo cans have the same problem. While they are metal and should be waterproof, the rubber seal that provides the waterproofing could allow EMP to enter the can.

To protect from EMP you need metal surrounding the devices with no gaps.

So wrap your devices in aluminum foil, thicker foil is better than thin and using multiple layers. Or put the devices in a small box, wrap said box with foil and then put the box in the ammo can.

Later,
Dan

[dfelsent]

In one of my past lives I worked with some fairly seriously high powered pulsed lasers. Our issue was keeping the EMP in the box, not out. Without proper faraday cages we could blow out phone on the wall ten feet away. Not as powerful as lightning but hundreds of megawatts in nanoseconds.
The issue is that gaps in the metal seams of an enclosure act as antennas, picking up the high frequency energy from outside the enclosure and re-radiating it inside.
There are a few common solutions to this issue. One is lots of fasteners. In our case every two to three inches. And they had to be very tight to force the door of the chamber into continuous contact.
Another is to use a conductive gasket. This could be as simple as a piece of copper braid clamped all around the lid with fresh conductive surfaces exposed to the braid.
Think of it as an RF o-ring.

We actually just used copper window screen in the lab. Worked a treat.

There are more exotic and expensive solutions as well.

I’m not so sure about aluminum foil as it has an insulating oxide layer on the surface, although I suspect that multiple layers of a single piece of foil would be pretty good.
EMP bags? I looked briefly and saw nothing that has actual testing though I’m sure it exists. Just didn’t find it.

Me? I happen to have a roll of copper lightning strike protection expanded metal screening for use in composite aircraft. But that’s cheating.

[Van Der Beek]

Originally Posted by seadago

... no to mention the posibility of cooking some gadget in the rush to warm up your cup of tea!

But I agree, a couple of nested aluminium boxes with insulation material in between maybe the best protection achievable.

Haha yes there is that too of course

Originally Posted by seadago

But I agree, a couple of nested aluminium boxes with insulation material in between maybe the best protection achievable.

It's better than the microwave approach for sure, also less stress involved.

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by MartinR

Just keep one old phone together with a power bank as backup stored in a metal box. Cheap insurance against a lightning strike.

And I will write this one more time: Commercial vessels do not carry paper charts anymore. The powers in charge have deemed electronic charts safe enough. For the future this will mean that paper charts will probably not be available, if we are lucky, maybe as print on demand.

Absolutely false. I am on a ship now and we have literally hundreds if not thousands of charts all either current and up to date or with corrections on file. Furthermore I have never in my life been on a ship with no paper charts. If you mean tugs, ferries, oilfield vessels, etc then you may be partly right, but no commercial deep sea ship operates without paper charts.

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

I am a Navy Surface Warfare Officer, and so have a lot of bridge experience on large ships. I've also sailed a great many miles beginning in the mid-70's where the only way to sail was with paper charts, and the only way to get a fix was with a hand bearing compass. For a large ship, "True" is the order of the day there, and works fine. However, "True" is an absolute disaster on a sailboat. It provides no benefit and nothing but confusion. Everything on the boat reads magnetic -- your compass card on the binnacle, your hand held (or binocular held) bearing compass, your autopilot, everything. Why would you plot it in True, and then apply variation? Why would you take a bearing in magnetic, and then apply variation, to plot a LOB? There are two compass roses on the chart, just use the one that aligns with the systems on your vessel and skip the extra step.



You may be right that "professional navigators use True," but that is only because professional navigators are on vessels with gyro compasses -- and since a gyro reads in True, that's what they use. But skilled recreational sailors use what they have -- which is magnetic.

Sorry, but the magnetic compass rose will still not necessarily be in agreement with your compass due to deviation. As a professional you ARE aware of this, right? It should be a given that in order to set a course to steer, you will still have to convert back and forth between either PSC and Magnetic, or PSC and True. So, may as well use true on the chart, and calculate the compass heading to steer from True. This allows you to reference the L/L grid with a protractor, too. And anyway, your azimuths will need conversion anyway. And if you do a compass check on a range, it will be in True. Honestly, the only thing in the world that is actually accurately in magnetic is a perfect magnetic compass far away from any wires or electricity or ferrous metals or any magnetic or electrical influence other than the earth's magnetic field. That leaves out pretty much any cruising boats compass, which even if adjusted and compensated can go out of adjustment with little more than a sneeze, at least figuratively.