Are radio direction finders completely obsolete?

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

Ok...I'll bite...how is RDF used for fox hunting?

http://146970.com/PDFs/RDFing.pdf

very popular in some parts

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

CelestialSailor just let me replace the ribbon in my typewriter and I will reply to your question!
Cheers

Just reply to my email...I have a 14-4 phone modem now...

[Wotname]

Getting back to radio waves and plotting bearings - does you GPS give you a rhumb line bearing or a great circle bearing to a waypoint or does it do both?

Now 'Ping, you must hold back for a moment please.....I know you (as a professional navigator) know the answer but I do wonder how many recreational navigators do assume the answer or worse, not care.

Although I admit, it matters not for most of us.

[JPA Cate]

With our Northstar GPS, you could choose which you wanted to use. Probably can with our other ones.

Ann

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Point of order - the Med - no matter what the Romans thought or some still think today - is not the centre of the universe.

People should read the OP again - no mention of small boats -

'Have radio direction finders become completely obsolete? Are any aircraft or vessels still using them? Are there still stations transmitting signals?'

My first boat came with a Newmar -101 which I wish I still had just for the radio.
My second boat came with something like a Homer but black? Maybe an Autohelm?

Replaced it with a DGPS.

Saw the effectiveness of RDF once in a typhoon of Okinawa. Log ship in distress - we responded - US Navy at Naha came up , asked other ship and then us to hold the key down - 500 kcs - and within the minute both ships triangulated by the americans.
I was impressed.
Don't knock old technology.

From the point of view of leisure sailing yachts the med is effectively the centre of the universe no other sailing grounds come anywhere near its density.

What you describe is not the RDF being discussed , RNLI and military and certain SAR vessels still maintain wideband radio directional finding equipment. However it’s certainly not universally fitted like it used to be

This is not the same as the marine beacons which used to exist along many costs typically as part of the SAR coast radio network. Most of these have been discontinued.

Hence is radio directional finder technology obsolete NO , is small boat navigation orientated RDF obsolete. Most definitely so

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Getting back to radio waves and plotting bearings - does you GPS give you a rhumb line bearing or a great circle bearing to a waypoint or does it do both?

Now 'Ping, you must hold back for a moment please.....I know you (as a professional navigator) know the answer but I do wonder how many recreational navigators do assume the answer or worse, not care.

Although I admit, it matters not for most of us.

How long do I have to hold back for?

None of my GPS give me bearings GC or otherwise. Only L/L, CoG & SoG.
Are you asking what my plotters do?
I can tell you a funny story about that.

[Baronkrak]

A SeaFix R.D.F.still in use.

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ne-178262.html

https://books.google.com.au/books?id...%20RDF&f=false

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

How long do I have to hold back for?

None of my GPS give me bearings GC or otherwise. Only L/L, CoG & SoG.
Are you asking what my plotters do?
I can tell you a funny story about that.

It's been long enough!
What do your plotters do?
I do like a funny story so pray tell.

[El Pinguino]

Never owned an MFD but I would guess they will give a GC course and distance cos that is simpler to work out than mercator course and distance.

It would be simple enough to write a simple plane sailing program into the software for distances under 600 miles but I doubt if any bother.
Now opcn is interesting and I'm not sure what it actual calculates over short distances but I am guessing GC as there is no difference.
Longer distances it uses and shows GC but offers the option of rhumb line.

Now the funny story is strange funny not funny funny.
I still have the old 'burglebrand' CMap program given to the world by Ivan Ivanovitch of St Petersburg many many years ago.

That will show the rhumb line track and the GC course at the same time which could be rather dangerous in the wrong hands.
Extreme example - you enter a route between somewhere in New Zealand and somewhere in the same lat in Chile. It will show a track of 090* but display a course of 128* - which if entered into your autopilot would put you on the beach round the back of East Cape muy pronto.

I suspect this is a trick question.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Never owned an MFD but I would guess they will give a GC course and distance cos that is simpler to work out than mercator course and distance.

It would be simple enough to write a simple plane sailing program into the software for distances under 600 miles but I doubt if any bother.
Now opcn is interesting and I'm not sure what it actual calculates over short distances but I am guessing GC as there is no difference.
Longer distances it uses and shows GC but offers the option of rhumb line.

Now the funny story is strange funny not funny funny.
I still have the old 'burglebrand' CMap program given to the world by Ivan Ivanovitch of St Petersburg many many years ago.

That will show the rhumb line track and the GC course at the same time which could be rather dangerous in the wrong hands.
Extreme example - you enter a route between somewhere in New Zealand and somewhere in the same lat in Chile. It will show a track of 090* but display a course of 128* - which if entered into your autopilot would put you on the beach round the back of East Cape muy pronto.

I suspect this is a trick question.

No, not really a trick question but one I think not many ask.

I have only limited experience with MFDs and all the ones I do know are always GC course and distance. I was sort of surprised to hear of Ann's experience but I guess it makes sense that it can be user defined.

One funny story deserves another, so -

Back in the day when the Garmin GPS 100 was the bees knees, I sold one to a guy (we were Garmin distributors at the time). Within a few days, he wanted to return under warranty as it was 'faulty'. This was surprising but I asked him to return and I sent him a new one (after giving it the once over on our test bench). He reckoned the second one was also crook. I knew the guy and he was normally a straight shooter so I went digging into the reported fault which was the difference between reciprocal bearings between two waypoints was not 180 degrees and he 'knew' it should be.

Took awhile to explain that GC courses are different to Rhumb line courses. After sorting that out, we had to move on the next 'fault' which was reported as the magnetic variation wasn't constant.

[mcarthur]

I must admit to sometimes feeling that an RDF-equipped missile system would be useful in those locations where it's common for continuous chatting on ch16 (either ignoring requests or not understand the language), or fingers always on transmit on a 25W set...

[Jim Cate]

I was sailing/cruising/racing back in the days when RDF was still in use, and I had several different receivers over a few years period. Even on the dedicated beacons (far better than broadcast stations) the nulls were pretty wide, the boat motion made deciding just where the null might be and the fact that most of the time there were no beacons in the right positions to give a decent fix meant that it was not a very useful nav aid (for me, at least).

There was one time, though... in the Single Handed Farallones race the viz was awful, and the usually easily spotted island was not showing up. There was a beacon there, though, and I was able to get a LOP from it that told me when to tack, and probably by chance I fetched it perfectly. This lead to finishing second overall in what was for me a major event, and I was pretty chuffed!

But considering the course of the GGR race, I doubt if many of those skippers will be relying upon RDF to find Cape Horn... or anything else.

Jim

[Sailor Sailor]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

CelestialSailor just let me replace the ribbon in my typewriter and I will reply to your question!
Cheers

You wrote this as a joke, and it is actually a good analogy.

Some still use and prefer manual typewriters over computers or word processors, in certain instances, for some of the same reasons one might prefer older navigation devices:

1. It won't fail with loss of electricity or technological failure. A manual typewriter works, no matter what, anywhere you want to use it. You just need paper and a ribbon or ink.

As others have stated, if you lose electricity with a lightening strike or electrical system failure, you still need to navigate to get home, or where you are going.

2. There is a basic tactile and auditory reward in using manual technology. The clicking of typewriter keys, the ring of a bell for the return, and advance of the roller create a more enjoyable experience than the sterile typing of characters on a keyboard. Some fiction writers will only use a manual typewriter for that reason.

GPS is sterile and requires little or no thought. It is all pushbutton simple and stupid.

3. There is less chance of distraction. With a manual typewriter, there is no danger of being distracted by e-mails or Google searches. It keeps one focused on writing.

Some sailors using GPS are addicted and get stuck on the screen, they don't get their heads out of the boat and look around or connect with nature. Sailing becomes like playing a computer game. (I see this happen with my older son.)

4. There is a confidentiality and privacy. There is the potential for every keystroke and printed document on a computer to be saved and/or duplicated with spyware. Oral communications can be recorded by the ubiquitous smartphones. Not so with a typewriter. Two professions drawn to the used typewriter market are now doctors and lawyers (along with fiction writers) because you can type a communication in complete privacy, and with shredding or burning, it no longer exists.

A person can be found by using GPS or a mobile device. Some of the Russian oligarchs whose yachts were seized were tracked by their electronics.

Check it out, there has been a resurgence of interest in manual typewriters. (Mine is a 1960s Smith-Corona Skywriter, a portable design created for typing during air travel.)

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Sailor Sailor

You wrote this as a joke, and it is actually a good analogy.

Some still use and prefer manual typewriters over computers or word processors, in certain instances, for some of the same reasons one might prefer older navigation devices:

1. It won't fail with loss of electricity or technological failure. A manual typewriter works, no matter what, anywhere you want to use it. You just need paper and a ribbon or ink.

As others have stated, if you lose electricity with a lightening strike or electrical system failure, you still need to navigate to get home, or where you are going.

2. There is a basic tactile and auditory reward in using manual technology. The clicking of typewriter keys, the ring of a bell for the return, and advance of the roller create a more enjoyable experience than the sterile typing of characters on a keyboard. Some fiction writers will only use a manual typewriter for that reason.

GPS is sterile and requires little or no thought. It is all pushbutton simple and stupid.

3. There is less chance of distraction. With a manual typewriter, there is no danger of being distracted by e-mails or Google searches. It keeps one focused on writing.

Some sailors using GPS are addicted and get stuck on the screen, they don't get their heads out of the boat and look around or connect with nature. Sailing becomes like playing a computer game. (I see this happen with my older son.)

4. There is a confidentiality and privacy. There is the potential for every keystroke and printed document on a computer to be saved and/or duplicated with spyware. Oral communications can be recorded by the ubiquitous smartphones. Not so with a typewriter. Two professions drawn to the used typewriter market are now doctors and lawyers (along with fiction writers) because you can type a communication in complete privacy, and with shredding or burning, it no longer exists.

A person can be found by using GPS or a mobile device. Some of the Russian oligarchs whose yachts were seized were tracked by their electronics.

Check it out, there has been a resurgence of interest in manual typewriters. (Mine is a 1960s Smith-Corona Skywriter, a portable design created for typing during air travel.)

I was talking to an ex typewriter repair guy who now repairs sowing machines he certainly said that a few afficanadoes might have retained some , but as spare parts are nearly unobtainable , there’s no revival, the word processor reigns supreme

GPS , I have 10 capable devices on board , four are independant battery , 9 survived my recent lightening strike

People have been convicted by manual typewriters signatures , when I was using dads typewriter distraction levels where very high , boredome , the girlfriend and the doorbell. The dog was quite annoying too. He delighted in stealing my typing , carbon paper notwithstanding

Let’s not descend into tinfoil hat abject nonsense I thought RYA yachtmaster formal chart techniques and most errors were made in plotting running or three point fixes. Far far safer and easier to see a “ boat icon “ on a digital map as many thousands of boaters know too well . The least you ask people to use a pencil and maths the better

Manual type writers are like RDF obsolete for all practical purposes , not withstanding a few wacky “ holdout” types. Let’s salute the past technologies , but let’s not over romanticise them or imbue them with superhuman powers.

One day gps may be superseded too and become obsolete

Ps by definition all technology is “ sterile “ and little thought to get the end result is safer when it comes to humans.

PPS a good mechanical cherry keyboard and a software “ carriage bell “ can easily recreate the past

Of course as hard as I could none of dads typrewriters could spell check , no matter how I tried , also difficult to get through airport security as it exceeded the weight allowance and a forklift wasn’t available. The security guy at the airport refuse to beleive people created letters on those contraptions and seized it as a dangerous object.

I suspect it attracted lightening to boot.

It also needed nasty ink thingies , that got twisted up , left smudges everywhere.

Equally I found cutting and pasting in diagrams , photos and other things a right pain , that UHU got everywhere and destroyed the typewriter roller as well.

It did prop up a broken bedside table leg for a few years. So some good came of it.

Ppps, a person cannot be found merely because they have a gps receiver , lets leave that nonsense to the tin foil hat adherents

Doctors do not use typewriters as legal accountability requires a information trace. The same is true for lawyers. Let’s not advance entirely nonsensical “ opinion” to forward an untenable argument

Far more people will board a steam hauled excursion train this weekend then have ever used a mechanical typrewriter in the last 20 years. Is steam obsolete , yes but obsolete doesn’t mean disappeared of the planet.

[thomm225]

The cool thing about the GGR Race requiring only sextants, charts, and RDF's be used is that the sailors have to actually do a bit of work/calculations to find their position on the globe rather than simply glancing at a GPS or chart plotter.

The Polynesians back in the day sailed by wave direction keeping their boats at a certain angle to the sea

If you are distance racing though as in the GGR, navigation is very important and if it is off a bit it can cause you to sail a further distance and lose positions to your competitors so it becomes as important as sail trim and boat setup etc.

Btw as a teenagers I worked at a typewriter and mechanical adding machine business. I even went to Elmira, NY to the Remington Facility there to learn a new Mechanical Adding Machine/Calculator.

Adjustments to it were like adjust lever B 20,000th of and inch from Lever A etc. Then the cams for the accumulators had to be perfectly aligned also.