Are radio direction finders completely obsolete?

[lituya1617]

The yachting world seems to forget that there are other sailors and other boats on the waters of the world. RDF is a fine navigational system and it gives a heading that is a good rhumb line to a waypoint. The receivers are still made and available. RDF is in use in much of the world for fishing boats in a specialized way that is not strictly navigation. Drift nets and expensive fishing gear that is left to float and only pulled every few days may be very difficult to locate visually. The fishing fleets use a special float attached to their drift gear that transmits a burst signal on a very narrow band on a secret frequency, usually three dashes, at a set time and then repeats at another set time over and over. Some of the better radio floats even move from one frequency to another at known times. This makes the very difficult to pick up for those who do not know what frequency or time the signal will occur so pirates cannot steal the gear or the fish. You locate the gear with an RDF tuned to the correct signal frequency. So, RDF is still in use. I have seen RDF on yachts too.

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by lituya1617

The yachting world seems to forget that there are other sailors and other boats on the waters of the world. RDF is a fine navigational system and it gives a heading that is a good rhumb line to a waypoint. The receivers are still made and available.

This site looks interesting.
RDF Products Professional-Quality VHF/UHF Radio Direction Finders

This also.
https://www.mantsbrite.com/Koden-KS-...on-Finder.aspx

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by lituya1617

The yachting world seems to forget that there are other sailors and other boats on the waters of the world. RDF is a fine navigational system and it gives a heading that is a good rhumb line to a waypoint. The receivers are still made and available. RDF is in use in much of the world for fishing boats in a specialized way that is not strictly navigation. Drift nets and expensive fishing gear that is left to float and only pulled every few days may be very difficult to locate visually. The fishing fleets use a special float attached to their drift gear that transmits a burst signal on a very narrow band on a secret frequency, usually three dashes, at a set time and then repeats at another set time over and over. Some of the better radio floats even move from one frequency to another at known times. This makes the very difficult to pick up for those who do not know what frequency or time the signal will occur so pirates cannot steal the gear or the fish. You locate the gear with an RDF tuned to the correct signal frequency. So, RDF is still in use. I have seen RDF on yachts too.

Yep, very true.
To be somewhat pedantic, the heading will be a great circle bearing and over short distances, this will be 'good enough' as a rhumb line.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

This site looks interesting.
RDF Products Professional-Quality VHF/UHF Radio Direction Finders

This also.
https://www.mantsbrite.com/Koden-KS-...on-Finder.aspx

Thanks for those links and I note they are still active .

Maybe someone here should let them know this stuff is obsolete

[wsmurdoch]

I own a working Lokata 7 handheld RDF. It receives LW beacon transmissions (but not AM MW broadcast band). A site with a list of the currently functioning USA (and other) navigation beacons is https://www.dxinfocentre.com/ndb.htm. From my house I can easily receive the morse "TR" (Tri-Cities Airport) of the Bristol, TN beacon on 299.0 kHz.

I have never carried it on my boat finding that the several GPS receivers on the boat are more than satisfactory for any navigation need I might have. It is a museum piece that I can hold in my hand and say to my grandchildren, "Back in the day..." I do carry and use a sextant, but that is only for fun and for maintaining my skill.

IBM Selectric typewriters are by the way easy to hack. Just swap out the ribbon cartridge of your boss's secretary's typewriter, pull out the used ribbon, and read every word she typed.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by flightlead404

This is a big one for me, I struggle with it working although not sailing or flying. Its why American flew an airliner into a mountain.



The cockpit of the future is a computer, a dog, and a pilot. The computer is there to fly the plane. The man is there to feed the dog. The dog is there to bite the man if he tries to touch the computer.

Electrifying the buttons is easier and there’s no dog to feed

Engineers always try and remove the operator. The operator is easily the most error prone part of the control system.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

^^^^
I keep reading this "requirement" thing and wonder if this is real? Yes, they are ALLOWED to use RDF, but not IIRC REQUIRED to do so. When the use of satellite nav is ruled out, then RDF might well be useful in some circumstances where celestial is unavailable (fog, overcast,etc). This does not mean that RDF is not obsolete for the general population nor that it is a useful navigation technique in general for modern sailors.

All this talk made me think a bit... and I believe that there is my old hand held RDF on board, buried in a locker somewhere! But I doubt if I will try to find it today...

Jim

If the majority of marine beacons are gone and the equipment cannot be sourced , clearly in anyones mind it’s obsolete.

Why not run a poll in the sailing club say 20 sailors

Hands up who uses gps
Hands up who uses RDF

( you need to explain the RDF term )

Then let’s review your answer as an indication of obsolescence

The steam locomotive is more common place then RDF

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by CdS2 Roland

Hello,

GGR is a retro, single, non stop sailing race done in 1968 conditions. In that race RDF is a requirement.

No where else. But if someone wants to play with it ... why not.

It’s not a requirement. You can navigate anyway you want , but you can’t use modern systems. Rdf is not a requirement it’s a suggestion

[goboatingnow]

They were obsolete in 2002

https://forums.ybw.com/index.php?thr...-usefull.9017/

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by carioca

You can Google the location of AM broadcast antennas to add to your charts or to use as a waypoint. Along the Texas gulf coast, there are close to 60 AM stations that could be used for navigation. Many are 5kw or higher output. Does work as a back up if GPS is inop. Before GPS, following a depth line & using radio bearings was good enough to navigate the Texas coast and Mexico.

Most RDF units like the lokate 7 and the seafix typically tuned from 100khz to about 400khz to cover the commercial HF ( ie long wave band )

These days mostAM is 500khz up and long wave is virtually dead

Hence radio stations sent much use certainly in the next few years as virtually all long wave commercial is gone.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

If the majority of marine beacons are gone and the equipment cannot be sourced , clearly in anyones mind it’s obsolete.

Why not run a poll in the sailing club say 20 sailors

Hands up who uses gps
Hands up who uses RDF

( you need to explain the RDF term )

Then let’s review your answer as an indication of obsolescence

The steam locomotive is more common place then RDF

But still a requirement for the 2022 GGR.

A hand raising vote means nothing,

See Notice of Race for GGR 2022.

That is the only vote that counts as for as what shall be carried aboard as far as comminications.

[goboatingnow]

The GGR does not mandate RDF , it merely doesn’t allow post 1968 navigation which is essentially gps

However justifying an obsolete form of electronic navigation on the back of a few entrants in a nostalgia race is just nonsense. It has no relevance to the vast vast majority of sailors.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The GGR does not mandate RDF , it merely doesn’t allow post 1968 navigation which is essentially gps

Do you just make up alternative facts to support your argument?

RDF is a requirement for the GGR 2022.

See Notice of Race:

https://goldengloberace.com/the-rules/

https://goldengloberace.com/download...EN_04_2022.pdf

(Page 34/35)

O. Communications Equipment, shall include


O5) A hand-held watertight transceiver operating on one or more aviation
frequencies including 121.5MHz. When not in use to be stowed in a grab bag.
O6) Marine RDF able to receive marine and aviation beacons for navigation
purposes.
O7) Personal AIS beacon (PAB)
O8) A GGR Special Production AIS ALARM unit from ciel-et-marine.com
O9) A GGR “Approved” AIS TRANSPONDER set to the entrant's yacht.
O10) A handheld GMDSS VHF radio with a long-life battery (stowed in grab

[goboatingnow]

Yes an RDF is required equipment to be on board as is the AIS safety kit and tracking equipment

It’s not required to be used that’s my point.

So you are carrying an obsolete piece of equipment so what it doesn’t sway the argument any way.

The GGR is the steam loco sailing equivalent no more then Thames sailing barge races.
It has no relevancy to this argument or the vast majority of sailors.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Yes an RDF is required equipment to be on board as is the AIS safety kit and tracking equipment

It’s not required to be used that’s my point.

So you are carrying an obsolete piece of equipment so what it doesn’t sway the argument any way.

The GGR is the steam loco sailing equivalent no more then Thames sailing barge races.
It has no relevancy to this argument or the vast majority of sailors.

So now you concede that it's a requirement but not required. (to be used)

Okay so you are changing what you said before.