Computer for navigation

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

It won't be usable for much else for long. Just surprised there is advice to start with a PC that is out of support. When an MFD goes out of support, it just stops at whatever point it was last updated. With your iPad, you will hit a point where you will be unable to run programs. It will be a brick.

This is a religious topic. I've worked in silicon valley technology for 25 years and am comfortable with it but am wary of the limits. For navigation and instrumentation, I advocate purpose built hardware that is designed for intended usage. And software/ firmware to match.

I don't know why Win 7 (I presume that is what you are alluding to) would suddenly stop working but if it did I'd switch to Linux

Anyway I'm just starting and I thought a Panasonic Toughbook would be one way to go. (I'd find may uses for a laptop anyway)


Thanks for your advice.

[SeanPatrick]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

It won't be usable for much else for long. Just surprised there is advice to start with a PC that is out of support. When an MFD goes out of support, it just stops at whatever point it was last updated. With your iPad, you will hit a point where you will be unable to run programs. It will be a brick.

Originally Posted by coopec43

I don't know why Win 7 (I presume that is what you are alluding to) would suddenly stop working but if it did I'd switch to Linux

I'm also a bit confused here. I have never used Apple products, so I must admit I'm ignorant about how they [don't] work. But that's not at all what we were discussing. I've had PCs (laptops and desktops) running old versions of Windows for many years after MS stopped supporting them. They were never "bricked" (barring some sort of catastrophic hardware failure) - nor did they cease to do what I wanted them to do. On the contrary: they just kept on keepin' on - regardless of whether they were able to receive updates or not. I guess that's one [more] thing MS has over Apple*.



My experience with Windows is exactly like that described by mvweebles when it comes to MFDs. With the lack of updates, the computer is just "frozen in time". It continues to operate - just as it always did. Sure, it might not recognize software or hardware that it wasn't originally programmed to handle - but it still does what it was originally tasked to do. If you try to ask it to do more, you might encounter problems, and it might be vulnerable to cyber attacks not yet even dreamed of by the developers - but that is not [IMHO] the fault of the programmer ... it is the fault of the end user. After all: programmers do not have a crystal ball when it comes to what the future may hold. Hell, it's hard enough writing a [bug-free] program for a current version of Windows as it is. If you don't believe me, then try it for yourself ... I have.


*Unless, of course, you're on the "other side" of things and forcing users to upgrade at the threat of losing functionality benefits you - financially. And I say "more" because there is also the consideration of accessibility. While Apple products are "curated" and less prone to things such as malware and viruses - MS products are more open to innovation by a much wider segment of the population - due in no small part to vastly less regulation [and monetary cost to the developer] concerning the origins and vetting of the source. But ... I suppose that is why Apple has a reputation of being a "computer for people who know nothing about computers". Microsoft has decided [rightly, IMHO] to lay the responsibility of vetting the intentions of developers at the foot of the end user. This allows room for the possibility of much more innovation than the alternative of a single company presiding over the entire library of available options.


YMMV.

[requiem]

Originally Posted by SeanPatrick

I've had PCs (laptops and desktops) running old versions of Windows for many years after MS stopped supporting them. They were never "bricked" (barring some sort of catastrophic hardware failure) - nor did they cease to do what I wanted them to do. On the contrary: they just kept on keepin' on - regardless of whether they were able to receive updates or not.
....
My experience with Windows is exactly like that described by mvweebles when it comes to MFDs. With the lack of updates, the computer is just "frozen in time". It continues to operate - just as it always did. Sure, it might not recognize software or hardware that it wasn't originally programmed to handle - but it still does what it was originally tasked to do.
....
If you try to ask it to do more, you might encounter problems, and it might be vulnerable to cyber attacks not yet even dreamed of by the developers - but that is not [IMHO] the fault of the programmer ... it is the fault of the end user.
....
After all: programmers do not have a crystal ball when it comes to what the future may hold. Hell, it's hard enough writing a [bug-free] program for a current version of Windows as it is. If you don't believe me, then try it for yourself ... I have.
....
Microsoft has decided [rightly, IMHO] to lay the responsibility of vetting the intentions of developers at the foot of the end user. This allows room for the possibility of much more innovation than the alternative of a single company presiding over the entire library of available options.

Regarding updates, I see all three of the major environments as similar; frozen in time but still operating until something external impacts them. That could be a new exploit, an updated app, a change in hardware, or something else. My older Apple devices eventually claim that the newest OS version can't be installed, but they still run. The same applies to applications; eventually a newer version of an app might say "Oh, I can only run on version X or newer". This can also result in a chain of issues; the app update requires an OS update which requires updated hardware, etc. To me, that approach to tech is a bit like not looking for a gas station until the low fuel light comes on.

As to bugs and exploits, I don't mind Apple's approach. Writing solid code requires care and consideration, but often developers take an "eh, close enough" approach. Knowing which data is "trusted" and which isn't, knowing how your functions handle unexpected or even hostile input, etc. should be considered relatively basic skills. There are some places where it might hamper innovation, but I'd argue that's more from Apple's desire for control as opposed to an effect of their security vetting. (Also, nothing says the App Store is the only source of software for Macs, but it does provide a relatively safe space for the unwashed masses.)

To further abuse the auto analogy, simply knowing how to operate a car isn't sufficient; one must also know the rules of the road. Unfortunately the MS ecosystem is much closer to a world where drivers do things like stop or reverse on the motorway, park in the middle of the street to run into a shop, etc.

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by requiem

Regarding updates, I see all three of the major environments as similar; frozen in time but still operating until something external impacts them. That could be a new exploit, an updated app, a change in hardware, or something else. My older Apple devices eventually claim that the newest OS version can't be installed, but they still run. The same applies to applications; eventually a newer version of an app might say "Oh, I can only run on version X or newer". This can also result in a chain of issues; the app update requires an OS update which requires updated hardware, etc. To me, that approach to tech is a bit like not looking for a gas station until the low fuel light comes on.

As to bugs and exploits, I don't mind Apple's approach. Writing solid code requires care and consideration, but often developers take an "eh, close enough" approach. Knowing which data is "trusted" and which isn't, knowing how your functions handle unexpected or even hostile input, etc. should be considered relatively basic skills. There are some places where it might hamper innovation, but I'd argue that's more from Apple's desire for control as opposed to an effect of their security vetting. (Also, nothing says the App Store is the only source of software for Macs, but it does provide a relatively safe space for the unwashed masses.)

To further abuse the auto analogy, simply knowing how to operate a car isn't sufficient; one must also know the rules of the road. Unfortunately the MS ecosystem is much closer to a world where drivers do things like stop or reverse on the motorway, park in the middle of the street to run into a shop, etc.

Yesterday I bought my Panasonic Toughbook with Win 7 and 500 HDD.

I've decided to use Win 7 and load OpenCPN. I plan to replace the HDD with a 240GB SSD some time in the future. If for some unexpected reason Win 7 stops working I will load Linux.

Keep in mind my yacht is not in the water and at this stage and I know nothing about navigation.

Thanks everyone for your help.

[thomm225]

It's so strange that most of this can be accomplished with a $99 Raspberry Pi 4 Computer Kit which includes 4 GB RAM and 32 GB Micro SD Card.

You can get a 128 GB SD Card if needed. Add free OpenCPN Charts with GPS and AIS from your $300 SH GX2200 and you are in pretty good shape for navigation

For backup GPS you can get a $17 hockey puck USB GPS and hook that up also and get a spare Raspberry computer kit if you want total backup

[GILow]

For all of those fretting about how Windows 7 is no longer supported, I ask a simple question...

“How often do you ring Microsoft for help?”

For a stable, non internet-connected computer, Windows 7 is fine. Sure, sooner or later the software you want to run will ask for a higher level of operating system, but until then, 7 will be fine for most of these jobs.

[akopac]

Originally Posted by thomm225

You can also use a Raspberry Pi Computer. These can be had from $10 - $90 for a full kit.

I just bought a couple of them (with 4 GB RAM) and have my AIS information from my SH GX2200 now displayed on a monitor/HDTV.

The gps is a hockey puck style USB which shows my boats position on the OpenCPN chart

https://www.amazon.com/CanaKit-Raspb...a-805715560965

I use a raspberry pi and openplotter with no monitor or keyboard or mouse. I have a iPad and VNC screen share the to the pi. Real low power and ou can take the screen anywhere while the pi is dry down below.

The pi doubles as a WiFi hot spot and uses less than an amp. I use a iPad Air 2 as it has a laminated screen with anti glare coating standard.

[Curryfrog]

I have virtually no understanding of computers and get completely lost when people throw around initials and acronyms such as VPN and openCPU or whatever.
I’m planning an Atlantic crossing this year and have a chart plotter, but can someone please tell me what a computer based Mac system is, and how to do it?
Do I need just a computer, or do I need a separate aerial or whatever?
Muchly obliged....

[DHLyman]

I stick with my Apple iPad with GPS and Navonics. Navigated from Maine to the Caribbean and along most of the islands with my iPhone and Navonics. The combination has everything I need, its portable, light, great for route planning, tracking, charts all over the place and I can stick its in my pocket and plan my next days voyage while at the bar.

[svspirited]

Originally Posted by Curryfrog

I have virtually no understanding of computers and get completely lost when people throw around initials and acronyms such as VPN and openCPU or whatever.
I’m planning an Atlantic crossing this year and have a chart plotter, but can someone please tell me what a computer based Mac system is, and how to do it?
Do I need just a computer, or do I need a separate aerial or whatever?
Muchly obliged....

If you have little technical ability I would recommend staying away from any of the PC/Mac based navigation software and stick with dedicated instruments. An iPad with something like Navionics is a nice choice but you will either need one with the built-in wireless so you have GPS, get a separate USB based GPS antennae, or have a WiFi network on your boat with an NMEA 2000 transmitter that can take your dedicated GPS signal and transmit it so that the iPad can connect via WiFi.



If you are as technically unsavy as you say I have totally lost you with even that. If that's the case get a good Garmin, B&G, Raymarine, etc chart plotter with either built-in or an external GPS antennae and use that.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Curryfrog

I have virtually no understanding of computers and get completely lost when people throw around initials and acronyms such as VPN and openCPU or whatever.
I’m planning an Atlantic crossing this year and have a chart plotter, but can someone please tell me what a computer based Mac system is, and how to do it?
Do I need just a computer, or do I need a separate aerial or whatever?
Muchly obliged....

A Mac system is one using the Mac Operating System (OS) with a Mac computer made by Apple.

VPN is a Virtual Private Network which allows you to appear like you are someplace other than where you are with a virtual IP Address

OpenCPN is a free open source of charts etc whereby you can build your own chart plotter. You can just get a GPS dongle to represernt your vessel and this will overlay on the chart as you move.

I also have AIS on my "chartplotter" which is an HDTV. The AIS I have coming in from my SH GX2200 VHF thru a Raspberry Pi 4 computer ($99) and then displayed on a monitor/HDTV

Btw, you can go to the OpenCPN site and download charts now on the computer you are using to post on CF which is what I did before I bought the Raspberry Pi.

https://opencpn.org/

https://www.amazon.com/CanaKit-Raspb...NsaWNrPXRydWU=

[DHLyman]

It you get an Apple iPad, make sure it is the one with GPS built in. No antenna or extra stuff required, just Navionics software app. Your iPhone already has GPS, just download the Navonics app. It's really not that expensive.
Most of the offshore skippers I know use Navonics on an apple product.

[Curryfrog]

I have actually used an iPad with navionics installed alongside the B&G box I use, when cruising the NW of Scotland,, so I suppose I’m already doing it.
But can you use an iPad across the Atlantic?
Do they have built in GPSs?
I could use it as a secondary system if it could be used.
Along with charts, obviously!
Very helpful guys!
Very much appreciated!

[Curryfrog]

I really appreciate the fact that you’ve taken the time and trouble to reply. I really do!
But my ignorance precludes my ability to understand, as usual!

It’s the “ also have AIS on my "chartplotter" which is an HDTV. The AIS I have coming in from my SH GX2200 VHF thru a Raspberry Pi 4 computer ($99) and then displayed on a monitor/HDTV” bit that I go all gooey brained over and I just glaze over.
Sounds great but I would have more chance platting fog than being able to wire that lot up!
That’s if I could ever understand what it means, of course.
Thanks anyway. I appreciate the attempt!!

[svspirited]

Originally Posted by Curryfrog

I have actually used an iPad with navionics installed alongside the B&G box I use, when cruising the NW of Scotland,, so I suppose I’m already doing it.
But can you use an iPad across the Atlantic?
Do they have built in GPSs?
I could use it as a secondary system if it could be used.
Along with charts, obviously!
Very helpful guys!
Very much appreciated!

Yes, GPS is standard no matter where in the world you go. Navionics is good, though the charts for the Bahamas have historically been inaccurate and I don't know if they cover everywhere you may be going. They claim to have fixed this with a recent acquisition so maybe they are better now or will be in the near future.