Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

[James Baines]

Doug, after some considerable thought, I am tending to conclude that there is No electronic device, system, or innovation that does not supersede, enhance or replace, some earlier practice. Whilst it is true that modern electronic devices do more with less, and combine a myriad of previously stand alone applications into integrated suites, I can think of No electronic application that could be regarded as being truly “New”.
All electronic systems are essentially just a form of “On Demand” communication, connecting the “Asker” with the “Knowledge Base”, the “Buyer” with the “Seller” etc., and although these applications occur at the speed of light, they are all simply enhancing prior capabilities.
Just as “Grunts” and “Gestures” were superseded by the spoken word, which was then enhanced by some form of graphic communication, which was in turn enhanced by some form of “Writing”, today's electronic devices simply continue that “Communication Enhancement” continuum.
During my career as an aerospace engineer, I almost always worked on things that no one ever did before, but looking back, I am happy to quote Sir Isaac Newton who famously said: “If I can see further, it is because I stand upon the shoulders of the giants who went before me”.
Which tends to suggest that no matter how innovative we might think we are, we are simply building upon, or combining, modifying, enhancing, things that went before.
Going back even further in history, (And I hasten to add that I'm not into Any form of religion) we may do well to consider the biblical quote Ecclesiastes 1.9 which held that: “What has been done will be done again, there is nothing new under the sun”.
I'm guessing that Ecclesiastes (Whoever the heck he was) may well be correct.
Ergo, I suspect that this new thread direction may be short lived...

[doug86]

Well, James, with all due respect; are you suggesting there is nothing new under the sun?

I beg to differ. To keep my response short, let me point to this example of a really bad concept, an idea so wrong, so completely outside the actual reality. Yet, it was gospel, an unshakable truth, so positive were we of this idea that those who challenged it were put to death or locked up for life. What was this idea?

The Universe revolves around the Earth.

It seemed obvious to anyone who stepped outside at night and watched the sky. Anyone who had seen the sun rise and set knew this to be true.

It was so thought to be true that when Galileo proposed his contradictory theory, he was locked up.

So, perhaps there are no new truths under the sun, but there sure are new ideas and discoveries. New ways to see things and understand things. No one who cruises thinks the earth is flat, but in a historical way, that is a new discovery. Ecclesiastes and his contemporaries thought the world was flat. They were wrong.

Perhaps the one thing that never changes is this: those who insist that the past is the only lens with which to view the future are usually nearsighted....

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by ActiveCaptain

(...)

The only paper appropriate on a boat today is toilet paper.

(...)

Good on ya, mate.

b.

[James Baines]

Hi again Doug,
I will try to be equally brief in my response: The notion that the universe revolved around the Earth was nothing more than one of a myriad of spurious beliefs postulated by religious leaders based on nothing more than the “We know best” attitude that they used to control the great unwashed and thus maintain their power over them.
And the oft quoted “The Earth Is Flat” notion is (In historical terms) actually quite new, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that anyone thought the earth was flat at any point in history and the earliest reference to it is actually a humorous “Whimsy” by a 20th century author.
I agree that there that there will always be new ways of looking at, understanding, and finding new and better ways of doing things but I still tend to believe that whatever those new “Discoveries” might be, they will be building upon that which we already know and do and will simply be new and more innovative ways of doing things faster, better, or more effectively.
Are there new things under the Sun? Perhaps, but only if you are a passionate practitioner of quantum physics and math.
But that's a whole new universe...

[David_Old_Jersey]

I guess it is how one defines "new" under the sun.

Could say that the ability to transfer information, ideas, thoughts, witterings around the world in seconds is simply an enhancement of the postal service. or a bloke with a good memory, stout sandals and time on his hands ........but I think it is more than that. the Internet (just as an example) is more than the sum of it's parts (libraries combined with the postal service). I would rate it up with things like Libraries, the wheel and the machine gun as game changers for the human race - whether those count as "new" is a different thing and is perhaps irrelevent (before Libraries folks exchanged information, before the wheel goods were transported and before the machine gun folks got killed, including on a large scale).

IMO what the world needs is more imagination for ambition - the technical side is secondary. FWIW I am working on building 2 Pyramids - one bigger than anything the Egyptians ever did and the other is going on the Moon.........the goal of both is to make a profit (hey, no point making these things too easy ). It's my contribution to world peace. and curing global warming and possibly writing my name into history - and therefore becoming immortal

FWIW the plans are mostly on paper

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by James Baines

(...)

but I still tend to believe that whatever those new “Discoveries” might be, they will be building upon that which we already know and do and will simply be new and more innovative ways of doing things faster, better, or more effectively. Are there new things under the Sun? Perhaps, but only if you are a passionate practitioner of quantum physics and math.

(...)

Why do you spell "Discoveries" where it seems you talk of discoveries, developments or inventions? Which reminds me of a recent call for better spelling from a moderator ;-).

In fact, the world is full of things new under the sun. Their newness is not in the unlikely fact that they did not EXIST before but in the fact that we did not know SEE or know them before.

As soon as you try to make your first one, you will see it is not all that simple and should not ever be described as "...whatever those new “Discoveries” might be...". As soon as you make one, you will immediately start to wonder how come NO-ONE saw something that was there right in front of our eyes all the time.

Cheers,
barnie

[James Baines]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Why do you spell "Discoveries" where it seems you talk of discoveries, developments or inventions? Which reminds me of a recent call for better spelling from a moderator ;-).

A thousand pardons my liege…Someone must have slipped something in my drink (Probably me)

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by James Baines

A thousand pardons my liege…Someone must have slipped something in my drink (Probably me)

Decent, undiluted rum here - you are invited anytime!

Cheers,
barnie

[James Baines]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Decent, undiluted rum here - you are invited anytime!

Cheers,
barnie

Sounds good to me, go easy on the coke...

[doug86]

So, what do you suppose these future boaters will be using to navigate?

Auburn School District Decides All Kindergartners Need iPad 2 (VIDEO)

A Maine school system may be adding the iPad 2 to its list of mandatory kindergarten classroom items, with the district footing the bill.
The Auburn Schools Committee voted unanimously to provide all kindergartners with an iPad 2 next year. Each subsequent kindergarten class would receive individual devices as well...
"What we're seeing is that this is an essential tool -- even more important than a book. It's a learning tool they need to have." ....Skeptical community members say the kids are too young to take care of an iPad and that they simply don't need it.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by doug86

So, what do you suppose these future boaters will be using to navigate?

Auburn School District Decides All Kindergartners Need iPad 2 (VIDEO)

Ahhhh... introduce the kids to reliance on a 'Mind Debilitating Drug' at an early age... and free thinking moves one step closer to its demise...
Even simple Maths seems impossible to kids these days without a calculator in their hand....

[ActiveCaptain]

Originally Posted by doug86

Chart making technology remained basically the same for 400 years.

This is really true and we're just starting to benefit from the changes. Satellite imagery provides incredible tools to the cartographer - professional or amateur. New crowd-sourcing techniques provide better sounding data for the waterways than NOAA will ever be able to do. Some examples:

- Normal production boats are now able to transit the Northwest passage from Nova Scotia, over the top, to Alaska. OK, perhaps that's also a "benefit" from Climate Change but still, it's possible because of daily satellite imagery reporting ice build-ups in the different passages and relaying that data to cruisers.

- Regular people are mapping the streets, buildings, and geographical information in OpenStreetMap (openstreetmap.org). Potlach 2 is software that you can use yourself to add to the database - go map your neighborhood although it's probably already done. OpenSeaMap is a similar project attempting to do the same thing with nautical charts - it's just getting off the ground.

- Crowd-sourcing of live soundings data calculated against tide, transducer position, and wind effect produce better nautical data than has ever existed. TeamSurv is a group we're working with to collect and distribute this type of data. It's experimental right now but the advantages are too great. Check them out (http://www.teamsurv.eu/Data/Display/...B/Default.aspx) There's another project called Argus doing a similar thing.


The medium of paper gets in the way of being able to use these technologies just like parchment got in the way over the last 50 years. We stopped using parchment because it had too many disadvantages even though it was used for hundreds of years. The few decades of paper chart use are but a blip on the historical timeline.

Future sailers will laugh remembering how "governments" used to survey coastlines every 20+ years to produce charts. The nautical chart of the future isn't something you hold. It's a subscription to something you load.

[osirissail]

Originally Posted by ActiveCaptain

. . .
- Crowd-sourcing of live soundings data calculated against tide, transducer position, and wind effect produce better nautical data than has ever existed. TeamSurv is a group we're working with to collect and distribute this type of data. It's experimental right now but the advantages are too great. Check them out (TeamSurv - View) There's another project called Argus doing a similar thing. . . .

Sounds like a great idea, since actually according to the NOAA disclaimer you must acknowledge before being able to download digital maps - " much of the depth information found on NOAA charts is based on surveys conducted before 1940, the shoreline is more than 20 years old, . . ." Which makes some of the charts 60+ years "out of date."

- - Unfortunately, the only way "Crowd-sourcing" will work or be accepted is to first kill all the lawyers in the world. Which in and of itself would solve a lot of other problems too.
- - But specifically to nautical charts, legal liability is the single most inhibiting factor in non-governmental "updating" of nautical charts. Since it is very difficult, if not legally impossible, to "sue the government," private chart makers simply copy the official charts and cannot alter any navigational data contained therein or they open themselves up to lawsuits from idiots who use those charts - at least in the USA. All "supposed" updates to commercial vendor chart systems, really are not. Most are simple "re-packaging" of a series of charts or the inclusion of government charts that have been "officially" updated.
- - So we are right back where we started decades ago - old charts simply repacked into a more convenient system using computer digital processing and display. As others have mentioned, papyrus, parchment and modern paper/plastic degrades much faster than digital storage methods. And the old materials take up considerably more space and weight.

[smurphny]

Have electronic nav (Sailcruiser/C-Max) with backups but ALWAYS print out a set of close-up charts to have right in the cockpit. It's one of the items my checklist of what to have on deck before upping anchor. Not that I don't trust the computers but ...well...I don't. Also, with a small printer on board, the night before setting sail, can print out magnified views of things like inlets. Can also print out calibrated Google Earth pictures now that this technology is getting better. Can't wait for all the features of the Earth's oceans to be FREELY accessible. GO GOOGLE! Has always galled me that governments do all the research with taxpayer dollars and then charge for charts. Having navigational information is a safety issue and should be as free as our NOAA electronic charts. IMO, it is a no-brainer that bleeding money from sailors should be trumped by safety.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by osirissail

Sounds like a great idea, since actually according to the NOAA disclaimer you must acknowledge before being able to download digital maps - " much of the depth information found on NOAA charts is based on surveys conducted before 1940, the shoreline is more than 20 years old, . . ." Which makes some of the charts 60+ years "out of date."

- - Unfortunately, the only way "Crowd-sourcing" will work or be accepted is to first kill all the lawyers in the world. Which in and of itself would solve a lot of other problems too.
- - But specifically to nautical charts, legal liability is the single most inhibiting factor in non-governmental "updating" of nautical charts. Since it is very difficult, if not legally impossible, to "sue the government," private chart makers simply copy the official charts and cannot alter any navigational data contained therein or they open themselves up to lawsuits from idiots who use those charts - at least in the USA. All "supposed" updates to commercial vendor chart systems, really are not. Most are simple "re-packaging" of a series of charts or the inclusion of government charts that have been "officially" updated.
- - So we are right back where we started decades ago - old charts simply repacked into a more convenient system using computer digital processing and display. As others have mentioned, papyrus, parchment and modern paper/plastic degrades much faster than digital storage methods. And the old materials take up considerably more space and weight.

This is quite an ill informed post. Crowd sourcing is already underway at navionics. The liability issues are overstated.

Dave