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**Jim Cate** · 15-06-2011, 14:32

Well, another emotional thread, with lots of good points being made. Our answer to modern nav is to use OCPN on a laptop, CM93 charts, and to carry paper as well. We don't worry too much about updating the paper, but we still manage to use them when required. Our lengthy stays in very 3rd world areas has lead us to not depend on man made aids very much, and that seems to carry over even when in well maintained areas. Not criticizing anyone else's decisions on these issues... this is what has worked well for us for some years now.

On the issue of neglecting traditional means of navigating: A couple of years ago we visited on an Aussie warship which was visiting in Hobart. I was somewhat surprised to find the chart of the Derwent on the bridge table, and to see that there were a series of penciled-in positions right up the river. These were obtained by taking bearings on charted objects along the shore, not by some fancy gear, but a plain old pelorous mounted on a wing bridge. When I asked about this, the nav officer said that they ALWAYS did this, even in home waters, and even though they had a fancy chartplotter right by the helm. Food for thought, I reckon.

Anyhow, having started cruising before the advent of satellite nav, I really appreciate its ease, accuracy, and lack of dependence on sky conditions. I love my GPS. I also still carry my sextant...

Cheers,

James Baines · 15-06-2011, 14:58

To: goboatingnow

I agree with you totally but the transition to All new technologies takes time, learning, and more importantly, the gaining of a “comfort” factor that allows the user of the older methods and processes to feel able to abandon, or at the very least, to stow the older methods onto the shelf.

The Digital vs. Film camera is a good example of that and I cheerfully admit that I thought my top of the line Minolta 35mm would reign supreme forever over those upstart Digital cameras.

Then, many years ago, I bought a Sony FF70 and I have not used the 35mm since.

The surprising thing to me is that this transition from paper and sextant to the “Somewhat” more recent GPS / Electronic Charting / Mapping systems has taken so long to become “Acceptably” dominant.

There is no question that these electronic systems Are dominant; the paper charts so highly valued are generally outdated versions of the currently available “E” versions and the slow transition “Acceptance” issue appears to be one of heritage, history, and a love of the old traditions.

Traditions die hard, and none more so than the tales of the sea…James

osirissail · 15-06-2011, 19:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I'd have to say the OPs premise is. Unfortunately , true. The main reason is the production and distribution of paper charts is time consuming and expensive. . . . Dave

In actuality, the retail chart outlets have already gone beyond the above. They now use the "print on demand" chart system. From Blue Water Books website: "Instead we recommend OceanGrafix printed on demand charts which are printed for your order in our store and include all of the changes published in the current Notices to mariners (NTMs). These charts are approved by the US Coast Guard."
- - So in essence, the days of "stocking" charts is gone and if you want a "paper" chart, they just print it out for you from the NOAA chart database.
- - Of course if you have a PC based navigation system you can do the same thing - print out on your own inkjet printer the portions of the raster charts you are interested in.

**sneuman** · 16-06-2011, 04:22

For the last time, I know what a g$#!!8&! zoom button is. I don't want detail from the chartplotter, I want the BIG PICTURE. Opposite things, entirely!

conachair · 16-06-2011, 04:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by sneuman

For the last time, I know what a g$#!!8&! zoom button is. I don't want detail from the chartplotter, I want the BIG PICTURE. Opposite things, entirely!

Never owned a chartplotter so can't comment on that, but I have come to much prefer laptop over paper.
Day to day normal use in the real world when the boat isn't getting struck by lightning and all the gps satellites haven't fallen out of the sky.
Paper is always nearby but having zoom on the mouse wheel works great for me, big picture, zoom into detail, all there. Measure off distance and bearing in an instant. really easy and quick.
This is not something which was decided beforehand as a "good thing", just a habit which evolved through ease of use.
And anyway, 90% of the time who cares where you are, as long as you know for sure where you are not.

MarkJ · 16-06-2011, 05:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by James Baines

The surprising thing to me is that this transition from paper and sextant to the “Somewhat” more recent GPS / Electronic Charting / Mapping systems has taken so long to become “Acceptably” dominant.

Hi James, and every one generally

I think its got something to do with the difference in tactility ( tactile...).
Many people still only read news in printed newspapers. Printing on paper should be defunct by now, but the few demographics that pay for news prefer it on paper. It even took me ages to prefer to read news on computer. But how did one read a broadsheet newspaper on the bus to work?

Then theres books. Theres no way I can read a novel on Kindle (mind you I havent tried!) but bookstores are closing down! (Small Business Minister says all bookshops wiped out within 5 years: http://www.theage.com.au/national/bookshop-anger-speaks-volumes-20110614-1g1zc.html )

I remember when I found it hard and slow to type... now I find it hard to write with a pen!!! My hand would fall off if I had to write a full page!

For someone who has grown up with computers - my first one was 1988(?)- screen size now 'seems' perfect. For most people who have used them for years the graphics of a computer is much easier than any paper, book or printed anything - except maybe paintings where I look from the other side of the gallery. We can adjust colours and brightness, volume and add or subtract multimedia. For someone else who hasn't grown up with computers its irritating as well as distracting. Their performance using a computer would be lower than traditional means.

So where the uptake of digital photography was so fast (I had the same problem where I bought a great slr film camera), mobile phones were the same... one day we had to prearrange everything, the next day we arrive at the bar, pull out the phone and organise a party!
Still some older people can't use mobiles - my Mum can't! - let alone a computer.

Because of the altered tactile properties, and the resistance we see in these threads, I think it will be a slow change. Generational. I am sure paper charts will stop being produced soon as they are so expensive to print, but people will still use them till the computer generation takes over. And that must still be 15 years away. When the majority of the people my age retire and start cruising, and the majority of the people cruising now have swallowed the anchor.

As long as each skipper does his educated best theres no real safety problem with using paper charts imho. As for the newer generation, computers are much easier so more people can navigate safely.

Mark

ActiveCaptain · 16-06-2011, 06:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkJ

I think its got something to do with the difference in tactility ( tactile...).

Respectfully, I don't think so.

I've had this debate so many times now. I've been giving presentations about new technology and new chartplotter products at various rendezvous, fests, and other shows/forums for almost 8 years. In 2003 I gave my first presentation at TrawlerFest/Solomons about why handheld computers/Palm (eventually phones) were important for cruising boaters. "Resistance" to these changing technologies always has a common thread and being as delicate as I can, it has to do with a single factor: age.

Now I'm a card-carrying AARP member (great discounts for car rentals) and can't see my computer screens or phones without reading glasses. But every single 25-35 year old sailor "gets it" (electronic navigation) immediately. It's some of us older guys who are resistant to change and haven't adopted these newer technologies into our lives who can't get away from paper charts.

There's nothing wrong with using paper charts. Just make sure you show a few children/grandchildren the charts so they'll have memories about how navigation "used to" be done. Might as well show them some LP records too because most of them have never seen one.

**sneuman** · 16-06-2011, 07:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by ActiveCaptain

Respectfully, I don't think so.

I've had this debate so many times now. I've been giving presentations about new technology and new chartplotter products at various rendezvous, fests, and other shows/forums for almost 8 years. In 2003 I gave my first presentation at TrawlerFest/Solomons about why handheld computers/Palm (eventually phones) were important for cruising boaters. "Resistance" to these changing technologies always has a common thread and being as delicate as I can, it has to do with a single factor: age.

Now I'm a card-carrying AARP member (great discounts for car rentals) and can't see my computer screens or phones without reading glasses. But every single 25-35 year old sailor "gets it" (electronic navigation) immediately. It's some of us older guys who are resistant to change and haven't adopted these newer technologies into our lives who can't get away from paper charts.

There's nothing wrong with using paper charts. Just make sure you show a few children/grandchildren the charts so they'll have memories about how navigation "used to" be done. Might as well show them some LP records too because most of them have never seen one.

I'm sure you're right. Our experiences inform our decisions and our choices. Those 25-35 year olds (and for the record, I am 45 and taught myself BASIC and Pascal circa 1981) probably have experienced nothing worse than their Nintendo running out of batteries. I'm guessing most probably haven't been in a situation, as I have, where virtually every single piece of electronics aboard a boat -- including those advertised as "submersible" (thanks ICOM!) went dead (due to water ingress from a breaking wave that stove in a portlight). For the record, the paper chart was also a soggy mess. We tried unsuccessfully to dry it out, but even so managed to use it along with a Garmin Gecko (our GPS backup) to find our position.

Since we'd been keeping a plot, the chart alone would have probably been enough, but the GPS alone would have been useless. This was 6 years ago. We didn't have a chartplotter, but I am almost certain it wouldn't have made it.

Also, for the record, I sometimes use Maptec on a ruggedized Panasonic toughbook. It works great, but most of the time I just don't need it; the paper chart is more convenient. I would LOVE to get a chartplotter -- I have been looking at them for years -- but I am not getting rid of the old tried and true either.

ActiveCaptain · 16-06-2011, 07:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by sneuman

Since we'd been keeping a plot, the chart alone would have probably been enough, but the GPS alone would have been useless. This was 6 years ago. We didn't have a chartplotter, but I am almost certain it wouldn't have made it.

Six weeks ago, we experienced a total electronics melt-down rendering all the built-in electronics useless at the helm. It was a moonless night at around 11 pm, offshore North Carolina by about 12 miles.

You can read the blog posting here:
http://takingpaws.blogspot.com/2011/...wn-at-sea.html

Spoiler alert - we lived. It's not the medium that matters, it's the backup that makes the difference.

**sneuman** · 16-06-2011, 07:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by ActiveCaptain

Six weeks ago, we experienced a total electronics melt-down rendering all the built-in electronics useless at the helm. It was a moonless night at around 11 pm, offshore North Carolina by about 12 miles.

You can read the blog posting here:
TakingPaws: Electronics meltdown at sea...

Spoiler alert - we lived. It's not the medium that matters, it's the backup that makes the difference.

I didn't gather what the source of the problem was. Was it indeed "no GPS signal"? If that wasn't it, what was it? If it was, what good was your backup?

ActiveCaptain · 16-06-2011, 07:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by sneuman

I didn't gather what the source of the problem was. Was it indeed "no GPS signal"? If that was it, what caused the problem? If it was, what good was your backup?

One GPS failed. Of course, the constellation of GPS satellites worked fine. I have 5 backup GPS's.

But let's say the GPS constellation failed and there was no GPS signal available at all. That would put all my electronic charts in the exact same situation as any paper chart - showing the geography and bathymetry but not my actual position. If this actually happened, I would have used radar to fix my position and if that failed, I would have run a DR line from my last known position.

That's the problem with paper charts. On the clearest day, with every GPS satellite working perfectly, the paper charts don't show me my position. On the extremely rare situation where all GPS satellites stopped (hasn't happened yet), then my electronic charts are still as good as the paper ones except they can run the DR plot for me automatically and continuously.

**sneuman** · 16-06-2011, 08:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by ActiveCaptain

That's the problem with paper charts. On the clearest day, with every GPS satellite working perfectly, the paper charts don't show me my position.

That's funny, they show my position just fine -- it's marked right there in pencil, day or night. Seems to have worked for guys like Chitchester, Moitessier and Knox-Johnston, too.

conachair · 16-06-2011, 08:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by sneuman

That's funny, they show my position just fine -- it's marked right there in pencil, day or night. Seems to have worked for guys like Chitchester, Moitessier and Knox-Johnston, too.

Can't remember which book, but in one of his Moitessier talks about one day there being a little box which will speak to satellites in the sky and tell you your position in seconds rather than having to take sights and work out poistion from there.

**sneuman** · 16-06-2011, 08:34

... from the man who refused to carry a radio, preferring instead to launch messages contained in 35mm film canisters onto the decks of passing ships.