How changing habits of navigation affect us

[SV Tom Crean]

I have loads of tech on the boat - Two 16 inch plotters plus an iPad so I can compare different chart systems. Heck I even have Navionics on my phone which can be used as a backup if needed.

Now maybe I’m old school but I still have my 20+ year old hand bearing compass and I still out of habit take a bearing on some mark or feature and compare it to the one on the MFD. just to be sure to be sure but it does give me confidence where the charts might not be 100% accurate.

I like tech and I am willing to adopt new tech just to see how it works but I don’t always trust it and still like to verify it.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Sonny36

After reading the article, above, I'm wondering whether this "experiment" with celestial navigation is not some sort of preparation for the Navy to completely "silence" a group of ships for some highly secret maneuver or attack point. Something along the lines of using signal lights during WWII for solely communication.

By stopping electronic navigation systems, an enemy "listening in" would have no way to track a group of ships.

Denying GNSS to a given area is entirely feasible , this has no relevance to leisure yachts are we don’t go sailing in a war zone and if we do we deserve everything we get.

Spoofing a single ship is doable , spoofing a large area is practically impossible due to the design of the receiver error checking.

Ships can’t “ listen in to navigation information “

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by SV Tom Crean

Now maybe I’m old school but I still have my 20+ year old hand bearing compass and I still out of habit take a bearing on some mark or feature and compare it to the one on the MFD. just to be sure to be sure but it does give me confidence where the charts might not be 100% accurate.

A radar overlay on an electronic chart is very helpful here. It will not show if the charted depths are wrong, but it will continually show if the charted land contour accurately matches the real world. It will also show any uncharted above water hazards.

[SV Tom Crean]

Yes indeed. Should have mentioned I use that also. Gotta use every tool available.

Originally Posted by noelex 77

A radar overlay on an electronic chart is very helpful here. It will not show if the charted depths are wrong, but it will continually show if the charted land contour accurately matches the real world. It will also show any uncharted above water hazards.

[thesaltytar]

Originally Posted by StuM

I get a 404- Page not found when I click on the link in Post#1

I gave everyone a broken link to the whole point of this thread!!

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...6/#!po=82.6923
^^^ Try that one.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by thesaltytar

I gave everyone a broken link to the whole point of this thread!!

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...6/#!po=82.6923
^^^ Try that one.

I don’t think that study , largely examining turn by turn navigation common in cars can be extrapolated to boats per se.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

A radar overlay on an electronic chart is very helpful here. It will not show if the charted depths are wrong, but it will continually show if the charted land contour accurately matches the real world. It will also show any uncharted above water hazards.

Up to a point , and once you realise that radar can be wrong too.

[thesaltytar]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I don’t think that study , largely examining turn by turn navigation common in cars can be extrapolated to boats per se.

Although the testing methodology used was driving, that was an attempt to qualitatively test spatial memory function. They have to choose some method. Memory recall studies using numbers or playing cards don't necessarily limit the utility if those studies to the poker table.

I agree this is why we need multivariate studies to draw from before making any ironclad conclusions, but I think this is enough to start a conversation. Excerpted from their discussion, for example:

"This is especially relevant in communities where wayfinding plays an important role, such as among the Inuit. The Inuit traditionally rely heavily on wind currents, snowdrift patterns, and astronomical information, amongst other things, for navigation. In the harsh environmental conditions of some northern Canadian regions, then, the most direct route between two points as determined by GPS is rarely the most optimal, as it does not account for the safety of the route."

Looks like modern boaters aren't the only ones struggling with auto-routing. [emoji848]

[goboatingnow]

What I meant was , I would have some agreement that blind route following typical of road ( and some land ) based navigation is leading to diminished spatial awareness and poorer native cognitive navigation skills.

It’s not quite there yet at sea as we largely still plan our own routes. Autorouting is coming and as I say, in the hands of the “ unwashed” could be very scary.

[thesaltytar]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

A radar overlay on an electronic chart is very helpful here. It will not show if the charted depths are wrong, but it will continually show if the charted land contour accurately matches the real world. It will also show any uncharted above water hazards.

This is textbook redundancy. Two systems, preferably independent in nature, using separate source data, providing an integrated output.

This is great because if the radar stops working you know about it immediately. If there are offset contours as you say then it raises a flag to check the GPS or chart datum. Throw in a depth sounder and now you have a third point of reference.

All of these methods are "better" than the manual methods of yesterday in speed and accuracy, and I would say even in reliability.

How many ships got wrecked because a plot was wrong? We will likely never know. They didn't have a "black box" scribe in the corner taking bridge minutes with their quill. But I'm guessing at least one.

As long as people don't forget their Mk. 1 eyeballs (love that) and that they are using the instruments, not the other way around. Depth sounder stop working? Grab the leadline. Or a wrench. Use the 11/16 not the M12. Spill coffee on your navigational PC? Have backup coffee ready to go. The importance of redundancy can't be overstated.

...and knowing how and when to use it.

[requiem]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

It’s not quite there yet at sea as we largely still plan our own routes. Autorouting is coming and as I say, in the hands of the “ unwashed” could be very scary.

You mean you don't just type the destination marina / restaurant into the Navionics search box, click "Boat to" and hand the wheel over to Otto so you can start mixing drinks? How boooring...

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by thesaltytar

This is textbook redundancy. Two systems, preferably independent in nature, using separate source data, providing an integrated output.

This is great because if the radar stops working you know about it immediately. If there are offset contours as you say then it raises a flag to check the GPS or chart datum. Throw in a depth sounder and now you have a third point of reference.

All of these methods are "better" than the manual methods of yesterday in speed and accuracy, and I would say even in reliability.

How many ships got wrecked because a plot was wrong? We will likely never know. They didn't have a "black box" scribe in the corner taking bridge minutes with their quill. But I'm guessing at least one.

As long as people don't forget their Mk. 1 eyeballs (love that) and that they are using the instruments, not the other way around. Depth sounder stop working? Grab the leadline. Or a wrench. Use the 11/16 not the M12. Spill coffee on your navigational PC? Have backup coffee ready to go. The importance of redundancy can't be overstated.

...and knowing how and when to use it.

As I said these days with the profusion of smartphones , tablets, laptops as well as dedicated marine gear, the chances of being positionless and chartless are slim ( and getting slimmer by the day )

Again this is in my view not about system failure , it’s about an over reliance on sophisticated systems that cannot and should not be used “ in blind faith “ you must retain awareness and the ability to rationalise.

[RaymondR]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

As I said these days with the profusion of smartphones , tablets, laptops as well as dedicated marine gear, the chances of being positionless and chartless are slim ( and getting slimmer by the day )

Again this is in my view not about system failure , it’s about an over reliance on sophisticated systems that cannot and should not be used “ in blind faith “ you must retain awareness and the ability to rationalise.

Having a plan for responding to a nav equipment failure, maybe just heaving to or anchoring, is probably just as important as having backup equipment. You never know, we may get a solar storm one day powerful enough to knock out all the gps satellites.

[Happ]

As I read this I thought of an around the world race a few years back. Here is a multi million dollar custom built 60’ boat for this race with ever piece of gear you could want. A full time navigator looking at weather predictions. He gave a course to steer. In the middle of the night the boat doing 17 knots runs aground on an atoll!!! The boat is destroyed. The error was simple. The navigator didn’t to see if there were any obstructions between where they were and where they headed.

Having said that I agree that spatial orientation is different with electronics. Even in my car I loose track of my actual direction. Am I still going N or did I turn E? It doesn’t really matter as the nav is giving me the directions.

In reality every new technology requires a change in mind set. When computers first came out it took me several years before I was able to proof read or review documents on the screen. I would print the documents, edit them on paper then correct them on the computer. I now do everything on the my iPad.

For me the change I discovered is I now plot courses with way points. This insures I am looking down the track. I am also looking at weather predictions and adjusting as I go. Most importantly I am looking at the most current weather. Yep that means looking outside! For me I am always looking at sail trim and course relative to the updated weather conditions. The promise of set the course and forget it are not there. Anyone who thinks that will one day find it out the hard way.

[requiem]

Originally Posted by Happ

As I read this I thought of an around the world race a few years back. Here is a multi million dollar custom built 60’ boat for this race with ever piece of gear you could want. A full time navigator looking at weather predictions. He gave a course to steer. In the middle of the night the boat doing 17 knots runs aground on an atoll!!! The boat is destroyed. The error was simple. The navigator didn’t to see if there were any obstructions between where they were and where they headed.

I hesitated to mention this case as there were a number of factors contributing. One of the significant issues had to do with the charts they were using for planning, and this was revealed by a last-minute change to the race area. I.e. the normal planning included a detailed route check, but the last-minute change (i.e. the night before the race) meant the check was done on the navigator's personal laptop which lacked sufficiently detailed charts.

As a result, I consider the pricing models for charts to have contributed to that grounding. Were they reasonably priced each system involved in the planning and navigation would likely have been equipped with a complete and sufficient set of charts, rather than the mish-mash they sailed with.

Originally Posted by Happ

Having said that I agree that spatial orientation is different with electronics. Even in my car I loose track of my actual direction. Am I still going N or did I turn E? It doesn’t really matter as the nav is giving me the directions.

(Glances at the heading-up vs north-up thread...) Perhaps I can interest you in the word of the One True Presentation, otherwise known as "North Up" mode?