La Vagabonde's crossing

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Terje Vigen

Latest Facebook posting from Nikki Henderson explains the work routines of our sailing heroes quite well

"Heroes" is grandiose isn't it? Two sailors and a bunch of passengers.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

They have what, 3 watchkeepers on board?

From the Facebook postings repeated here it looks like Mr. Whitelum and Ms. Henderson are the watchstanders. Ms. Carausu isn't standing a watch. At least she has been reported to be doing some cooking although peanut butter crackers for breakfast every day is off putting. Ms. Thunberg and Mr. Thunberg appear to be entirely passengers. No mention in any of the postings repeated here of them making themselves useful. Who would not, as someone's guest, not get up a little early and make omelets once in a while?

Originally Posted by Dockhead

So many people on CF do such passages double handed, but in my opinion that is short handed, and greatly degrades the experience. I like to have at least 4 and better 5 watchkeepers on board, with the skipper in reserve except in bad weather, and with fluent doubling of watches when desirable, and everyone rested alert and ready at all times. And having a good time even if there are weather challenges.

This goes directly to seamanship. You sail with pretty big crews. My standard crew is me and three watchstanders. Crew stand four hours on and eight off. I do nav, weather, most cooking, and back everyone up. One of the reasons people sail with me is to learn so there are often training evolutions. If the boat has enough room I'll take extras and put them on bridge watches (last two hours of one watch and first two hours of the next); this exposes them to two qualified watchstanders and me.

This does raise a sore point with me. If you have two crew neither of whom can stand a solo watch how does doubling them up make anything better? In my experience it leads to indecision and delays to waking me up. Davism (aphorism from me *grin*): the only acceptable response from a skipper on be awoken is "I'm coming."

That isn't to say that I don't like taking newer crew. Someone gave me my first chance and it is incumbent on me to pay it forward. Crew have sailed with me before making their own first passages and going long-term cruising. On one memorable trip I had ten people on board. Three watch captains, a complex watch schedule, a full-time cook with two assistants - I could barely keep the names straight much less the schedule (I had cheat sheets tucked all over the place). The list of topics to cover seemed to never end. I didn't get as much sleep as I usually do. PowerPoint slides in the salon. I thought we were going to wear out the fuel filter elements doing changes.

Great appreciation to the boat owners who feed extra mouths.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Cherod

,. I note that atoll is a forum “ subscriber “ perhaps that explains a little why the moderators permit has tantrums , not only does it demean him personally but I would venture generally bringing this forum into disrepute , shame on him , and his fan boys

Lol, this sounds a little bit like a tantrum in itself Cherod.[emoji4]

Those of us who have shared many threads over the years probably get a better sense of when someone known to us, is being 'tongue in cheek' with their comments or simply baiting the righteous indignation generated by those words, with some crafted barbs.

We have the history of their previous comments and actions in helping other members to judge their character.

Atol has earned respect for his actions over the years so while not a fan, I do give him some attitude latitude!

This still is a great thread so just ignore what you dislike and stay positive[emoji106]

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by StuM

And that's what she calls watch keeping at night?

I wonder what her night vision is like when she does her all round visual sweep

I'm seriously concerned with light discipline. I make an issue with crew about having their gear piled in the order they need it to avoid having to turn lights on. Still, I've been able to read a book by the light of a fully dimmed chartplotter. I'd like more information before landing on Ms. Henderson's head. On the other hand she might be a boob that uses a headlamp on bright with three LEDs. *sigh*

Originally Posted by StuM

According to her posts , she and Riley are the only two doing night watches, initially 2 on, 2 off and lately 3 on and 3 off. She is definitely talking about doing those activities while on night watch.

You can't keep that up for long. Just not enough sleep. Longer watches means longer off watches, therefore better rest, better judgment, and better reactions. Things change if you have to hand steer. I'd push for six and six.

Originally Posted by a64pilot

That would be classic Aspergers, and it comes from not understanding people and not being able to pick up on social cues to know when they are being made fun of or not.

Also consistent with introverts.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Cherod

Yes I expect they are unaware , but frankly for atoll to cast doubt on the parenthood of the child deserves nothing less than swift punch in the nose , I know that in my part of the world that would be the norm ,, I wonder how brave the keyboard warrior would be if they ever do come face to face ( which since Vagy will be in Europe there is a fair chance that they may well pass throo the mud flats that are Southampton )

Little chance of that..
If they make Falmouth on the other hand his local knowledge is useful as apart from food and booze bits and pieces are well scattered about..
Almost American..

[conachair]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

or simply baiting the righteous indignation generated by those words, with some crafted barbs.

That's called trolling. Textbook definition.

Can't we just stick with the weather or sod off and start a thread about how terrible people no one has ever met are...

The ignore list has doubled in size from this thread, some nasty people around

Back to the weather routing then....

[unbusted67]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

For those speculating about how they got the Outremer (and posting incorrect info) the details are all in videos on their channel:

- Riley saw an Outremer in Venezuela, spent Christmas with the owners, and fell in love with the boat
- Riley contacted the Outremer CEO and said "have I got a deal for you..."
- Outremer's Marketing Manager was already a follower and a fan of their YouTube channel
- They went to France for a boatyard tour, meetings, and eventually a deal
- They participated in the Outremer Cup on different boats while they were there
- Outremer gave them "a reduced price on the boat"
- Because of the channel they were also able to get "a big discount on sails and navigational gear"
- Outremer helped them with getting finance (borrowing money is cheap in France these last years)
- They are paying off the loan using the income from the YouTube channel
- The initial proposal may have been for 1 year but that may have changed during negotiations (in any case it's been a success, and has been extended)

So no free boat. A reduced price, discounts on other gear, and some assistance finding finance in a foreign country.

All in all not particularly unusual given the circumstances of the mutually beneficial arrangement between themselves and Outremer.

Either way it's good to stick to the facts though, irrespective of whether you like them or their channel.

Thanks man, sorry for being "that guy" spreading misinformation. I was a tour manager for bands and this sounds pretty similar to "sponsorship" deal musicians get where a company sells a guitar or drum set at a discounted price in return they get to put the musician's picture on their we site etc. Obviously if you are AC DC or something Gibson is giving you SGs hand over fist but an Outremer 45 is no Gibson SG. LOL

Kudos to the LV guys. They are hot but they don't seem like they are just a couple of vapid faces. Their videos are personal and some of the old ones are pretty gritty with the girl crying and frustrated like the rest of us!

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by boatman61

If they make Falmouth on the other hand his local knowledge is useful as apart from food and booze bits and pieces are well scattered about..

Falmouth is one of my favorite spots. If you hike up to the castle on the headland and walk on the outside path you'll find a paving stone facing the Atlantic that says:

"Welcome to England. Please wipe your feet."

You have to love that.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

You can't keep that up for long. Just not enough sleep. Longer watches means longer off watches, therefore better rest, better judgment, and better reactions. Things change if you have to hand steer. I'd push for six on six off

They have the people. With three people you can do 4 on and 8 off, that’s sustainable, but 2 or 3 on and off isn’t, not for longer than a couple of days.

When we delivered my boat, I hired a Pro to go with us, his rule was two in the cockpit and 2 hour shifts at night, well that meant 4 hours in the cockpit, and only 2 hours off, second night I nixed that, in stormy weather maybe, but just normal weather it wasn’t sustainable.

If you get really fatigued your immunities break down, you’ll get sick, and then your dead exhausted and sick.
Exhausted people don’t make good decisions, that’s why in flying crew rest is mandated.

A Mom and Pop crew just can’t in my opinion go long distances with 100% crew watch, and yes I know people single hand too, but both in my opinion if they let the truth be known get more than an hour or so sleep at a time, with only 2 hours off by the time you change over, go to the bathroom, and take a few minutes to go to sleep, your only asleep for not much longer than an hour.
I believe the boat is watching herself at times with only a couple or single handed

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by StuM

According to her posts , she and Riley are the only two doing night watches, initially 2 on, 2 off and lately 3 on and 3 off. She is definitely talking about doing those activities while on night watch.

Well, then, that's not the way night watches, or any other kind of watches, are done on my boat.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

They have the people.

Apparently they DON'T have the people. Only two watchstanders.

Ms. Thunberg is old enough to learn. Apparently she can't be bothered. Mr. Thunberg is certainly old enough. You can teach anyone to sail - you can't teach good judgment. This doesn't speak well of them. Why is Ms. Carausu not standing a watch? Why are Ms. Thunberg and Mr. Thunberg not at least stepping up to childcare to relieve Ms. Carausu to stand watches? Perhaps Ms. Carausu isn't much of a watchstander?

As I infer of your perspective off-watch time is more important than on-watch time. You have to get good rest.

Originally Posted by a64pilot

When we delivered my boat, I hired a Pro to go with us, his rule was two in the cockpit and 2 hour shifts at night, well that meant 4 hours in the cockpit, and only 2 hours off, second night I nixed that, in stormy weather maybe, but just normal weather it wasn’t sustainable.

I agree with your decision. You have to get rest. I don't have many rules (I prefer good judgment to rules) but one is that no one leaves the cockpit without someone else in the cockpit. That just means you have to wake someone up (usually me). Why is it always 3a, raining, and I'm in my underwear? (tm)

Two hour shifts don't leave enough time for rest unless you have six crew on board.

[txg]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Well, then, that's not the way night watches, or any other kind of watches, are done on my boat.

Then you are special. Over the years we probably met not much less than hundred offshore sailing crews and all of them read books or watch movies when on watch. That's just normal behaviour when being offshore. Obviously there are exceptions to this, like when crossing a busy shipping lane or generally anything else closer to shore.



Also, most of these crews we met are sailing couples (like us) and while it is exhausting, it is no big deal to cross oceans with a crew of only two. We crossed the North Atlantic this year in July and August and normally do 4 hour shifts in the night and 6 hour shifts in the daytime.



For me, the La Vagabonde currently has a pretty big crew. Even with one person less because of handling the baby and with two of the other four being non-sailors this is a crew level that's probably above average for cruising boats crossing the Atlantic Ocean.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

"Heroes" is grandiose isn't it? Two sailors and a bunch of passengers.

From the Facebook postings repeated here it looks like Mr. Whitelum and Ms. Henderson are the watchstanders. Ms. Carausu isn't standing a watch. At least she has been reported to be doing some cooking although peanut butter crackers for breakfast every day is off putting. Ms. Thunberg and Mr. Thunberg appear to be entirely passengers. No mention in any of the postings repeated here of them making themselves useful. Who would not, as someone's guest, not get up a little early and make omelets once in a while?

This goes directly to seamanship. You sail with pretty big crews. My standard crew is me and three watchstanders. Crew stand four hours on and eight off. I do nav, weather, most cooking, and back everyone up. One of the reasons people sail with me is to learn so there are often training evolutions. If the boat has enough room I'll take extras and put them on bridge watches (last two hours of one watch and first two hours of the next); this exposes them to two qualified watchstanders and me.

. . .

That isn't to say that I don't like taking newer crew. Someone gave me my first chance and it is incumbent on me to pay it forward. Crew have sailed with me before making their own first passages and going long-term cruising. On one memorable trip I had ten people on board. Three watch captains, a complex watch schedule, a full-time cook with two assistants - I could barely keep the names straight much less the schedule (I had cheat sheets tucked all over the place). The list of topics to cover seemed to never end. I didn't get as much sleep as I usually do. PowerPoint slides in the salon. I thought we were going to wear out the fuel filter elements doing changes.

Great appreciation to the boat owners who feed extra mouths.

More thread drift, but interesting.


Like you I sail with crew with variable experience and skill. I greatly prefer it when the boat is full of really good sailors who know the boat -- what I've had all this year -- but I can work with complete beginners also.


It is not hard to teach a complete beginner to keep a good watch -- keep a COLREGS-compliant lookout, which means looking out and around, and listening, ALL THE TIME, watch the sails and rigging, wind speed and direction, radar and AIS, with a list of eventualities which require calling the skipper or someone who can actually sail the boat. So long as the wind is reasonably steady and the weather reasonable this is immensely useful -- gives four hours of rest to the rest of the crew. I don't know why the Vag crew are not having Greta and her father stand such watches.

This kind of watch can be enhanced by having an actual sailor come on deck every half hour or every hour to check sail trim and look over the rigging.


The point is that a complete non-sailor and beginner can still be immensely helpful and can take up a substantial amount of the workload.

Originally Posted by Auspicious

This does raise a sore point with me. If you have two crew neither of whom can stand a solo watch how does doubling them up make anything better? In my experience it leads to indecision and delays to waking me up. Davism (aphorism from me *grin*): the only acceptable response from a skipper on be awoken is "I'm coming."

Of course two crew incapable of a solo watch are no more capable of it when there are two of them. That's not the point of doubling watches. I double watches in rough weather when possible so that people can help each other and keep an eye on each other. And in certain other situations:


1. Heavy traffic. One at the helm and doing visual watch, the other (usually mean) operating radar and radio and making collision avoidance decisions.


2. Bad viz. One on visual watch one on radar.


3. Sailing in areas with fishing gear or other hazards in the water. Two is better than one when you really need an unblinking gaze forward. I often send one to the bow even.



4. At night with beginners. They keep each other company, keep an eye on each other, make each other coffee, and it helps keep them alert.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by txg

Then you are special. Over the years we probably met not much less than hundred offshore sailing crews and all of them read books or watch movies when on watch. That's just normal behaviour when being offshore. Obviously there are exceptions to this, like when crossing a busy shipping lane or generally anything else closer to shore.
. . ..

Special or not, you are not keeping a proper watch when reading a book or, for God's sake, watching a movie, and I cannot agree that this is "normal behavior", even if it is common somewhere.


Maybe it's common in the tradewinds, but where I sail no one I know keeps watch like that.

[atoll]

Originally Posted by Cherod

Yes I expect they are unaware , but frankly for atoll to cast doubt on the parenthood of the child deserves nothing less than swift punch in the nose , I know that in my part of the world that would be the norm ,, I wonder how brave the keyboard warrior would be if they ever do come face to face ( which since Vagy will be in Europe there is a fair chance that they may well pass throo the mud flats that are Southampton )

i would extend to them the same offer of help as i would any other visiting yacht,should they turn up here in need of assistance.

as to paternity ,in cases of celebrity divorce where millions are involved,and children,a DNA test is pretty normal.
if lying about miles you have sailed is acceptable behaviour among celebrities,why stop there?

[txg]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Maybe it's common in the tradewinds, but where I sail no one I know keeps watch like that.

We have also sailed most of the Baltic, and you're right that this is not common there and would also not be a good idea. That's exactly what i meant with "closer to shore" which would include the whole Baltic Sea in my thinking.



But in case of being offshore like the La Vagabonde currently some hundred miles northwest of the Azores, reading a book on watch is just the standard thing to do. When on watch, we do use a timer set between 5 and 20 minutes to make sure to have a proper look around with the time depending on traffic and weather conditions.



There's not much to see out there anyways. Big ships all have AIS, Yachts normally all sail exactly the same direction and the possibility to spot a container or a whale before hitting it is pretty low even if you would stand behind the wheel all the time.