La Vagabonde's crossing

[Cherod]

I think under most circumstances that outremer will out perform all those condomarans , different species

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by marty9876

Is there any, completely unscientific, comparisons that can be drawn from La Vaga’s performance in this passage compared to those in the ARC? Basically is their performance cruising cat outperforming many of the more common ~ 45’ cruising cats (Lagoons, FP etc.) currently underway in the ARC.

Different weather systems, different crews and a many other variables I’m sure make an apples to apples comparison invalid but over a series of weeks do those average out into something comparable?

Interesting question, which I can't accurately answer. Someone posted above a website he created which was tracking their average speed and miles/day - you could take that and easily compare to the public data about multi performance in the ARC. You would be left with questions about apples to oranges, but it would at least give you a feeling about the topic.

The full-featured 'performance' routing packages do real-time data collection from the boat's instruments and create a continually updated accurate 'as sailed' polar for the boat. This is pretty helpful for more precise routing - takes a bunch of the polar guesswork out - and can also then provide an honest data-driven answer to questions like yours. With current modern instrument sensor packages, you can get and log sea state measurement data, which allows you to have '3d' polars (wind speed, angle and sea state) rather than only '2d' (wind speed and angle), which helps a lot because sea state does have a significant impact.

------------------------------------------
On a prior topic - when watching forecast development over time for a specific feature, like the TS on this voyage, I will (and did here) put in pins for the forecast center positions for like the next 5 days and then as subsequent gribs runs come out I can immediately see if the system is near the prior pin or has diverged. Gives you an immediate indication without extra work (no split screens or pulling up old gribs) if the thing is staying on track or doing something different.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

@Auspicious always writes too many words, and often comes across as too pedantic...

I can be a real PITA, can't I? I try to be clear and that leads to words. Fortunately I type fast.

Originally Posted by jmh2002

But I must agree that his last few posts (not all ) are right on target.

As leader, skipper, captain, master, or whatever, I often set no scheduled watch for me, normally much to the initial chagrin of the crew (thinking who is this diva captain, etc...)

Why? Because the Captain is ALWAYS on watch - 24/7
(even ashore having a drink in the bar you still somehow feel on watch)

Crew are unsure - captain is up. Course change necessary - captain is up. Sail changes necessary - captain is up. Skip it's gusting 40+ - captain is up. The forward head is leaking into the bilge - captain is up. Pre-cooked food is running low, crew are seasick - captain is in the galley. And on it goes.

And that is just all mostly normal passage stuff. If something really actually goes wrong, the Captain is up until it's resolved - and that might be 1 hour, or 3 days...

So Dave the best comment you always make is "I'm coming" (even if at the time multiple expletives are muttered to one's self!). It's always very correct in both action and mindset, as well as for the understanding and confidence of the crew.

Plus a fresh and rested Captain is always ready to help or rest crew at anytime, with anything.

On that note and strange as it might seem, on any size boat, yacht, vessel, or ship, somehow I always seem to have washed and dried a lot of dishes over the years...

Those that know will understand

I agree with your post. I'll add some: funny noise on the boat, skipper is up; autopilot beeps, skipper is up and in the cockpit; rustling around in the galley, skipper is up; crew can't sleep and joins watchstander in cockpit talking about docking, skipper is up to help the discussion; crew offers to make dinner and can't find something; skipper is up; crew is seasick and can't focus, skipper is up and drops into the watch.

As you say things go wrong. When was the last time you saw decent grab rails above the hardtop on a catamaran. Who is going to be up there trying to lasso the boom at 3a, in the rain, in underwear when the traveler car explodes? Who will be on the pointy end of the stick when the main halyard parts from chafe at the masthead sheave?

I've had the honor of some really great and motivated crew. There are more stories than I can tell, even by typing fast. Ultimately we are still responsible.

At the end of the day there is a lot of work to be done and the buck stops on the skipper's nav station. That includes cooking and washing up. It includes cleaning the heads before turning the boat back over to the owners. Weather. Nav. Provisioning. Planning bail-outs. Pulling a double after big weather so crew can rest. Staying on top of noise so off-watch can rest. Check and double check everything. Share information.

It is important to note that everyone makes mistakes, including experienced skippers. You have to be accountable, recognize the mistake, remediate, and move on. Learn from the experience. Anyone can repeat mistakes. The challenge is to learn from the mistakes of others in order to make new and creative mistakes of your own.

sail fast and eat well, dave

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Cherod

I think under most circumstances that outremer will out perform all those condomarans , different species

Crew are a bigger impact on boat speed than the boat.

[OldKetch]

Originally Posted by marty9876

Is there any, completely unscientific, comparisons that can be drawn from La Vaga’s performance in this passage compared to those in the ARC? Basically is their performance cruising cat outperforming many of the more common ~ 45’ cruising cats (Lagoons, FP etc.) currently underway in the ARC.

Different weather systems, different crews and a many other variables I’m sure make an apples to apples comparison invalid but over a series of weeks do those average out into something comparable?

You may follow the ARC here real time: https://www.worldcruising.com/arc/event.aspx

You may also find results from previous years if you dig around. You can make adjustments and select sub populations at your pleasure to get closer to comparing royal gala to golden delicious

Of course, as a rule a performance cat will beat a condomaran on absolute time, though not always on adjusted time. The fact that performance cats are still better on average even on adjusted time may well suggest that the owners of performance cats are more performance oriented.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by sirfer

You could follow Biotrek, an Outremer 5X currently doing the ARC, and compare to other cats that way.

quick peak - look like they are doing ok.



There does seem to be a quite wide range of opinions on the fastest routing

[Cherod]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

quick peak - look like they are doing ok.

Attachment 203896

There does seem to be a quite wide range of opinions on the fastest routing

Where did you get that ??

[OldKetch]

Originally Posted by Cherod

Where did you get that ??

On the link I posted above

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

quick peak - look like they are doing ok.

Attachment 203896

There does seem to be a quite wide range of opinions on the fastest routing

Fastest or easiest? Since this "race" is full of cruisers- often on their first ocean crossing- I'd bet a lot of these boats aren't concerned with getting there quickly, but much more interested in just getting there with as low stress as possible.

I haven't participated, but have walked the docks of Las Palmas before the ARC leaves. The boats we spoke to weren't concerned with routing the fastest (or even quick) path, they're only goal was to avoiding any and all higher wind speeds and waves. But I didn't talk to any of the crew on quick boat designs, so maybe my sample is atypical.

Don't know if its motivation from the helmswomen aboard, but LaVaga is putting down fast times than I anticipated. They are doing great!

Matt

[Dsanduril]

As someone who sails an older "performance" cat with generally just two of us aboard I can say that we rarely sail a passage in "performance" mode. It's just too much work. Anything above about 8 knots takes a fair amount of attention and effort and you can get most condomarans up to that speed in similar conditions.

Where we see a difference, in real world sailing, is two places; daysails/short trips and light air. When the wind is under 10 knots or so we do sail in "performance" mode - i.e. as fast as the boat can go - and we regularly outpace our condomaran friends by a large margin. But once you get enough breeze to push things along we tend to start reefing early. Our very best day's run was 260 miles and that happened when we had three very competent sailors on board - we just don't push that hard when there are two of us. I'd imagine the same is true of many ARC participants and may be true of LV on this passage with a toddler and two guests.

[boatman61]

3000+nm is a long way to go and if you don't have near limitless sponsorship funding one tends not to push the envelope and hammer the boat.
Breakages and repairs are painful when its your own boat.. and also your home..

[Cherod]

Originally Posted by OldKetch

On the link I posted above

found it , thank you

[Breaking Waves]

final few days weather is still shifting around a bit . . . now showing potentially quite light winds on the 4th (still pretty low confidence here)



If there is enough pressure to keep moving this could be quite pleasant (code sail) or it could be frustrating if it just dies. They have been able to keep decent speed in the light pockets so far.

Nearing the end here and running out of degrees of routing freedom now, so they just have to sail through whatever they get. Speed is their most useful tool from here on.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

As someone who sails an older "performance" cat with generally just two of us aboard I can say that we rarely sail a passage in "performance" mode. It's just too much work. Anything above about 8 knots takes a fair amount of attention and effort...

Originally Posted by boatman61

3000+nm is a long way to go and if you don't have near limitless sponsorship funding one tends not to push the envelope and hammer the boat. Breakages and repairs are painful when its your own boat.. and also your home..

^^^ These two posts probably sum things up very well regarding the average cruiser

In the case of La Vagabonde they have a professional racing sailor onboard and even if they are only in performance cruising mode for half of the day, we soon see the averages creep up.

[Cherod]

( on my weather forecaster ) actually looking quite good for the final run in with light ( ish ) north ( ish ) winds , continue playing the cards which they are given .