Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Bulawayo

You are plainly having an axe to grind. I suspect it is because the use of traditional navigation is beyond your knowledge. The US most certainly switched out the GPS for a couple of days and then turned off the selective capability for a couple more days at the commencement of the Gulf War. Try Googling it. For some, Ignorance is bliss.

Trying to introduce new arguments? Hmmm - doesn’t work with me. If the US turns off the GPS system, it’s virtually assured that so will all other system operators. That should be blindingly obvious. . Similarly, that risk is increasing with growing tensions in Eastern Europe as well as further East. Notwithstanding, an electrical event on board can also subjugate electric/ electronic devices. This includes a lightning strike or any other electrical catastrophe. You clearly have not understood the points I have repeatedly made and instead attempted to impose a different scenario to try and justify not appreciating the issues. I’m not lowering my intellectual standards any further by communicating with someone that argues pointlessly in an attempt to justify a non- appreciation of the subject and clearly has limited experience off-shore. .

Oh more. Appolcalypse arguments

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by wholybee

Last year I ditched all my paper charts. I wasn't using them, and I ran out of space. No reason to keep something you don't and won't need, that is taking space you do need. I *do* have a sextant on board, and a tablet of plotting sheets, and a basic knowledge of celestial navigation. Enough at least to get me to sight of land should everything else be lost. But I don't expect that will ever happen-it was mostly for my own satisfaction to learn it.

It is _possible_ that GNSS will fail/become unavailable or whatever. But the likelihood is (IMHO) approaching zero. With multiple redundant GNSS systems, redundant receivers on my boat, some of those battery operated and protected from lightning etc.

With that said, we have new tools, GPS, chart plotters, etc., but that just means the techniques for navigation are changed, it doesn't mean we no longer navigate. We still watch depths, currents, tides, plot courses to avoid other vessels based on CPA given by our chart plotters, calculate fuel requirements, estimate time of arrivals etc. I draw lines all over the charts in OpenCPN just like I did with paper charts to estimate when and where I will need to tack, mark off safety areas/lines I don't want to cross, etc. just like I did with paper charts. All of those are still skills to be learned, and a competent sailor will learn them, and not just use a GPS and point the boat in some given direction.

Pilotage, I think, is still much the same. While my chartplotter does give me a location and saves me from working a fix, I still compare the chart to my surroundings, identify all the buoys, lights, and other distinguishing features on the chart, and orient myself in space so that I am steering based on what I see, not staring at the chart. A GPS does not replace the necessity of that, although new boaters with less experience might just steer by the chartplotter, it isn't safe.

Agreed. With adequate preparation, I figure by the time I'd need to resort to paper charts, no GNSS, etc. something has likely gone so wrong that in my coastal boating, knowing exactly where I am is going to be pretty far down my priority list.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Jammer

Careful, you might become a Bull Rail Apologist if you keep this up.

Darn tootin’! I don’t need no new-fangled horn cleats to tie up my boat.

Oh wait… which side of the fight am I on. Damn… [emoji6]

[Bulawayo]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Oh more. Appolcalypse arguments

And your point is …….? Apocalyptic (spelling ��) events happen all the time. Boats get struck by lightning. The GPS was turned off due to the Gulf War for a couple of days. Who know how critical that was at the time to some people.
Chamberlain said ‘peace in our time’. We know how that worked out. It’s really no concern to me what you think or believe, or even who you choose to attempt to mock. You best hope it doesn’t happen to you if you ever venture off-shore. Meanwhile, I’ll at least know exactly where I am. I hope you have no need of traditional navigation.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

You can have as many GPS units as you like. But Lat/long is of limited use unless you know the Lat/long of the land and stuff. So how many chart plotters do you carry to provide redundancy? I carry 4, fixed PC driven display, Macbook, iphone, ipad but I can imagine events where all four could be toast. Unlikely events but events nevertheless.

Hence a paper float plan if even just for your own nav station. It will or at least should have the lat / lon of where you are hoping to make landfall.

I even have a sundial to figure out local noon time for solar sightings. To calculate against known Longitude time .

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

And a portabote, and a manual windlass, and a windvane … clearly, I’m not to be trusted [emoji6].

But do you have a new fangled sun stone ?

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Bulawayo

And your point is …….? Apocalyptic (spelling ��) events happen all the time. Boats get struck by lightning. The GPS was turned off due to the Gulf War for a couple of days. Who know how critical that was at the time to some people.
Chamberlain said ‘peace in our time’. We know how that worked out. It’s really no concern to me what you think or believe, or even who you choose to attempt to mock. You best hope it doesn’t happen to you if you ever venture off-shore. Meanwhile, I’ll at least know exactly where I am. I hope you have no need of traditional navigation.

i carry full CN setup , paper charts as well

but im not justifying any of it by speculating about the end of the world

my boat ws struk thre tim by lightning no issue with nav

gps hs never been disbled by the us since its inception

[Bulawayo]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Hence a paper float plan if even just for your own nav station. It will or at least should have the lat / lon of where you are hoping to make landfall.

I even have a sundial to figure out local noon time for solar sightings. To calculate against known Longitude time .

Nice. Better to be prepared and not need rather than vice versa. I suspect that the nay sayers do not have the fundamental knowledge or interest. That is their prerogative and I hope they never need it. I rather enjoy doing noon sights just for fun and have taught quite a few people the basics. I’ve experienced what happens when the GPS is switched off and have also been struck by lightning-thankfully in harbour at the time. That lightning strike wiped out everything- all electrics including our batteries. We couldn’t start our engines or even switch on a light and even our gas solenoid was locked safe (closed). That could be by-passed but having no electrical power is disconcerting to say the least.

[boatman61]

I'm curious if any of the folk in here have experienced electrical failure at sea and loss of position updates 1000nm+ from land.. what would these "I have 10+ back ups" folk would do if this happened..
Asking for a friend..

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I'm curious if any of the folk in here have experienced electrical failure at sea and loss of position updates 1000nm+ from land.. what would these "I have 10+ back ups" folk would do if this happened..
Asking for a friend..

Erm, bit of paper with a picture of the N Atlantic on it. Pencil and ruler perhaps. From the middle of the N Atlantic who cares were in Portugal you land

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

i carry full CN setup , paper charts as well

but im not justifying any of it by speculating about the end of the world

my boat ws struk thre tim by lightning no issue with nav

gps hs never been disbled by the us since its inception

The biggest possible problem would be an x 25 orhigher solar event .
The carrington event was x35
The Quebec event was x15
It can happen

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I'm curious if any of the folk in here have experienced electrical failure at sea and loss of position updates 1000nm+ from land.. what would these "I have 10+ back ups" folk would do if this happened..
Asking for a friend..

in 48,000 sea miles countless deliveries several transocean, several lightening strikes

never once lost all positioning fixing ability but did rely on CN for a day

in the recent direct lightening strikes, I retain 6 GPSdevicess, three electronic charting systems ( iphone 2 x tablets and a PC) plus paper charts, 7 GPS failed ( almot all the ones on the biats 12V system plus nmea 2000

never whistled , never phoned a frinds, transatlantic a shot a few sun sights

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

in 48,000 sea miles countless deliveries several transocean, several lightening strikes

never once lost all positioning fixing ability but did rely on CN for a day

in the recent direct lightening strikes, I retain 6 GPSdevicess, three electronic charting systems ( iphone 2 x tablets and a PC) plus paper charts, 7 GPS failed ( almot all the ones on the biats 12V system plus nmea 2000

never whistled , never phoned a frinds, transatlantic a shot a few sun sights

So you carry loadsa backups, charts and a sextant n tables.. Wow.!!!
I just carry a handheld gps, laptop with CM93 and a pilot chart..

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by boatman61

So you carry loadsa backups, charts and a sextant n tables.. Wow.!!!
I just carry a handheld gps, laptop with CM93 and a pilot chart..

the boat has 11 GNSS receivers in total. 4 on the nmea 2000 network, 6 on portables and a PC one
i carry paper charts and I have 5 electronic chart display systems ( PC, 2x tablets MFD, iphone plus the main helm MFD

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Hence a paper float plan if even just for your own nav station. It will or at least should have the lat / lon of where you are hoping to make landfall.

I even have a sundial to figure out local noon time for solar sightings. To calculate against known Longitude time .

Yes but ---- do you have both a northern and a southern hemisphere sundial?