Radar and chartplotter systems

[DTRguy]

Hey everyone! Wife and I just acquired an 81 Gulfstar 44cc. It has some decent (yet obsolete) navigation gear. Our goals are to sail from the Great Lakes up and around to the Caribbean in about 4 years. That being the case some equipment has to be added for true safety (radar, AIS). Currently the boat has linear drive B&G H1000 autopilot with display and one H1000 display for depth and wind instruments. For navigation an old Garmin GPS map 498 (told you it was old). Originally I thought that I could just upgrade the control systems to later legacy B&G (A&T instruments) then maybe some of my items can still work. Then, all I’d need to get was a stand Alone AIS transceiver and use an iPad for navionics or some other navigation ap. But, seeing that sailing in the northern Atlantic above Nova Scotia in late summer could mean thick fog… Radar is likely now a necessity… now this changes the playing field significantly! Now looking at a chartplotter (at least one) and a new system… I really don’t want to spend 10-15k on electronics… what are some thoughts? We will not be buying for a couple years yet. Want to start forming a strategy and see what tech comes along that might make what’s on market now more reasonable in cost… thanks for your thoughts and input in advance!

[s/v Jedi]

I recommend this:

- a NMEA 2000 backbone through the boat with T-connectors installed in all locations that you expect to connect sensors, displays etc.

buy these sensors as soon as budget allows: B&G starter kit with wind direction, wind speed, depth, speed through water, water temperature, position, and heading sensors. You can’t go wrong with this kit that includes two multifunction Triton displays: https://www.defender.com/product3.js...820&id=7081136

- you will need to add a plotter that supports radar. We selected a B&G Vulcan 9” with B&G 4D radar sensor and they are great. You need to keep an eye on specials as they only come once a year but save a lot. We saved $1000 with this by waiting for a Defender special that had the plotter mounting arm missing (but we installed flush so didn’t even need it). Have funds at the ready because when those specials come you need to be quick. Subscribe on emails from Hodges and Defender and any other suppliers you think are good.

- for AIS it is easy: find a transponder that feeds all to the NMEA 2000 backbone. This is the one that I would choose today:
https://www.milltechmarine.com/b600
Do not go for units that combine other functions like VHF, antenna splitters etc. When something breaks, you loose it all!
Use a dedicated antenna for this. If you have hour VHF antenna at the masthead, put this one on top of the upper spreader.by selecting a wideband antenna, it also becomes your backup vhf antenna! Here is a solid choice:
https://www.milltechmarine.com/Vespe...nna_p_284.html

- for VHF radio I don’t have a good recommendation as all have some problems that they shouldn’t have. I think Standard Horizon is a good choice but make sure to have an internal GPS because their NMEA2000 support is flawed. They all have trouble. Have a backup handheld as well.

Now for the iPad or iPhone. You want a wifi link to feed all instrument data into your device. I use Yacht Devices. i started with this:
https://yachtdevicesus.com/products/...ateway-ydwg-02
But have upgraded to a separate wifi router plus the Yacht Devices Ethernet gateway:
https://yachtdevicesus.com/collectio...ateway-yden-02

Now you need apps that support this. I like iSailor best. For your plotter, the C-Map chart packs for the Bahamas are based on Explorer charts. You definitely want these and they are great to have with iSailor as backup. The C-Map charts on my B&G Vulcan plotter include the raster charts that are the same ones as in the Explorer Chart Books.

[KompetentKrew]

You might find the Garmin's NMEA 2000 Network Fundamentals document PDF helpful in your planning.

[DTRguy]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I recommend this:

- a NMEA 2000 backbone through the boat with T-connectors installed in all locations that you expect to connect sensors, displays etc.

buy these sensors as soon as budget allows: B&G starter kit with wind direction, wind speed, depth, speed through water, water temperature, position, and heading sensors. You can’t go wrong with this kit that includes two multifunction Triton displays: https://www.defender.com/product3.js...820&id=7081136

- you will need to add a plotter that supports radar. We selected a B&G Vulcan 9” with B&G 4D radar sensor and they are great. You need to keep an eye on specials as they only come once a year but save a lot. We saved $1000 with this by waiting for a Defender special that had the plotter mounting arm missing (but we installed flush so didn’t even need it). Have funds at the ready because when those specials come you need to be quick. Subscribe on emails from Hodges and Defender and any other suppliers you think are good.

- for AIS it is easy: find a transponder that feeds all to the NMEA 2000 backbone. This is the one that I would choose today:
https://www.milltechmarine.com/b600
Do not go for units that combine other functions like VHF, antenna splitters etc. When something breaks, you loose it all!
Use a dedicated antenna for this. If you have hour VHF antenna at the masthead, put this one on top of the upper spreader.by selecting a wideband antenna, it also becomes your backup vhf antenna! Here is a solid choice:
https://www.milltechmarine.com/Vespe...nna_p_284.html

- for VHF radio I don’t have a good recommendation as all have some problems that they shouldn’t have. I think Standard Horizon is a good choice but make sure to have an internal GPS because their NMEA2000 support is flawed. They all have trouble. Have a backup handheld as well.

Now for the iPad or iPhone. You want a wifi link to feed all instrument data into your device. I use Yacht Devices. i started with this:
https://yachtdevicesus.com/products/...ateway-ydwg-02
But have upgraded to a separate wifi router plus the Yacht Devices Ethernet gateway:
https://yachtdevicesus.com/collectio...ateway-yden-02

Now you need apps that support this. I like iSailor best. For your plotter, the C-Map chart packs for the Bahamas are based on Explorer charts. You definitely want these and they are great to have with iSailor as backup. The C-Map charts on my B&G Vulcan plotter include the raster charts that are the same ones as in the Explorer Chart Books.

Thanks a million for that detailed response. I will take a look… I know we have an Airmar smart transponder in the hull… beyond that I don’t know. Our boat has a backbone that I believe is H1000 B&G proprietary. That’s a great idea to install the backbone preemptive to the work.

Edit: Are there advantages to the wired Ethernet version Vs the WiFi one listed? I currently have a cerbo GX that has WiFi for the components tied into that but that’s for electric system mostly.

[DTRguy]

Originally Posted by KompetentKrew

You might find the Garmin's NMEA 2000 Network Fundamentals document PDF helpful in your planning.

I will check this out! Thanks!

[requiem]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Now for the iPad or iPhone. You want a wifi link to feed all instrument data into your device. I use Yacht Devices. i started with this:
https://yachtdevicesus.com/products/...ateway-ydwg-02
But have upgraded to a separate wifi router plus the Yacht Devices Ethernet gateway:
https://yachtdevicesus.com/collectio...ateway-yden-02

I think Jedi's post has good advice. I do note that the Vulcan 9 has built-in wifi, which means you could put off the YDWG-02 and still connect your phone/tablet. (In contrast, Raymarine devices that claim to offer wifi would still require adding a wifi gateway to translate for many apps.)

One potential problem that can come up when using a mobile phone close to shore is that connecting to the boat wifi can effectively block mobile internet. My not-so-simple method is is to manually assign the phone's IP address on the wifi network, and remove the router and DNS settings. With my iPhone this was sufficient to have both instrument data and mobile internet functional. If you're living aboard there are likely better solutions, such as incorporating a mobile hotspot into the boat network.

[DTRguy]

Originally Posted by requiem

I think Jedi's post has good advice. I do note that the Vulcan 9 has built-in wifi, which means you could put off the YDWG-02 and still connect your phone/tablet. (In contrast, Raymarine devices that claim to offer wifi would still require adding a wifi gateway to translate for many apps.)

One potential problem that can come up when using a mobile phone close to shore is that connecting to the boat wifi can effectively block mobile internet. My not-so-simple method is is to manually assign the phone's IP address on the wifi network, and remove the router and DNS settings. With my iPhone this was sufficient to have both instrument data and mobile internet functional. If you're living aboard there are likely better solutions, such as incorporating a mobile hotspot into the boat network.

Doesn’t the B&G stuff also screen mirror? Seems if that works well enough there isn’t a need for more than one unit? We were contemplating just one unit and the next wondering is where to put it… the Nav desk or the helm.

[KompetentKrew]

Originally Posted by requiem

One potential problem that can come up when using a mobile phone close to shore is that connecting to the boat wifi can effectively block mobile internet.

I'm pretty sure it doesn't with the B&G plotters - in fact the plotter acts as access point and shares my phone's internet with my tablet.

[s/v Jedi]

I do not recommend to use wifi from the chart plotter. It will only lead to sorrow, plus it does not feed instrument data to apps like iSailor.

When you buy a good app for a tablet like an iPad, your GPS, AIS, depth, speed, wind, heading etc. etc. is all transmitted to it wirelessly when you have a good NMEA to wifi or NMEA to Ethernet adapter like the ones I linked to earlier. The wifi in a chart plotter won’t do that.

[KompetentKrew]

Originally Posted by DTRguy

Doesn’t the B&G stuff also screen mirror? Seems if that works well enough there isn’t a need for more than one unit? We were contemplating just one unit and the next wondering is where to put it… the Nav desk or the helm.

Yes, it does. Put the Vulcan in the cockpit.

There is a bug with B&G's screen mirroring app at the moment, which causes a green bar down the right hand side of the screen, but B&G are promising to fix it any time soon now.

This is my only caveat in recommending B&G plotters - the app is wonderful when it works, but not only is the bug significant (it causes colours to "run" right across the tablet's screen) but B&G have known about it an unacceptably long time (over a year?) without fixing it. During my last contact with tech support, 8 weeks ago, they promised it would be fixed real soon now.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by KompetentKrew

Yes, it does. Put the Vulcan in the cockpit.

There is a bug with B&G's screen mirroring app at the moment, which causes a green bar down the right hand side of the screen, but B&G are promising to fix it any time soon now.

This is my only caveat in recommending B&G plotters - the app is wonderful when it works, but not only is the bug significant (it causes colours to "run" right across the tablet's screen) but B&G have known about it an unacceptably long time (over a year?) without fixing it. During my last contact with tech support, 8 weeks ago, they promised it would be fixed real soon now.

They have had other problems with it before that. It has never fully worked and when it does for a little while, all you can do is see a copy of the display and send button presses back to it. It is a big PITA even when it does work.

A much better plan is to buy the remote keypad for it instead. But we use iSailor and transfer some key waypoints or a router manually because it’s faster. You can use a data card but the reader is on the back of the display.

[KompetentKrew]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

They have had other problems with it before that. It has never fully worked and when it does for a little while, all you can do is see a copy of the display and send button presses back to it. It is a big PITA even when it does work.

I found it brilliant before this bug. The only shortcoming I've found is that you can't pinch or unpinch to zoom in and out - you have to use the in and out buttons on the screen instead. It makes sense why this is, but also one naturally sometimes forgets.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by KompetentKrew

I found it brilliant before this bug. The only shortcoming I've found is that you can't pinch or unpinch to zoom in and out - you have to use the in and out buttons on the screen instead. It makes sense why this is, but also one naturally sometimes forgets.

Then try an app like iSailor and you’ll discover a new level of brilliance

[requiem]

Originally Posted by DTRguy

Doesn’t the B&G stuff also screen mirror? Seems if that works well enough there isn’t a need for more than one unit? We were contemplating just one unit and the next wondering is where to put it… the Nav desk or the helm.

Helm. For me one of the best use cases for a plotter is to display radar, and their other strengths are weather-proofing and brightness/dimming.

Down below I prefer more capable instruments (ie iPad or laptop), but a nice luxury might be a smaller display simply to use as a radar repeater.

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I do not recommend to use wifi from the chart plotter. It will only lead to sorrow, plus it does not feed instrument data to apps like iSailor.

When you buy a good app for a tablet like an iPad, your GPS, AIS, depth, speed, wind, heading etc. etc. is all transmitted to it wirelessly when you have a good NMEA to wifi or NMEA to Ethernet adapter like the ones I linked to earlier. The wifi in a chart plotter won’t do that.

Strange; I've been able to get all that data to my phone and tablet using the built-in plotter wifi. I don't use the screen mirroring apps, so I too have a "good app" consuming the NMEA feed. The wifi settings on the plotter can be a bit unclear though.

[DTRguy]

All great ideas! Thanks for the discussion! I’m not necessarily a fanboy either way with regards to brand of equipment. That being said I do like the idea of B&G being sailing specific. I know Raymarine had upped their game, as well as Garmin. Knowing I don’t plant to immediately upgrade I want to wait to see what time has done for the tech. That being said what are thoughts on the other brands… also the Vulcan was mentioned but what about the Zeus3?