Radar or no radar?

[mdenize]

Radar Definitely

As well as all the reasons above (basically the ability to see things that are moving or not on the rubbish charts we see from Navionics and CMap) there are a couple of cool things they do...

1/ You can measure the distance to things (eg a fishing boat on an uncharted reef) and plot them using the overlay function if you are so inclined to borrow fishing spots for later as you pass by at 10Nm

2/ You see if that collision course really is one and measure the distance to panic accurately based on relative speeds (some big boats go really fast!).

3/ You can tune it to show you the sea state this is really useful when entering a harbour or bar if you wind the gain up you can see the channel as a calm patch between and behind all the breaking waves that otherwise look like you are about to go aground. The same feature works in cook strait to show you the wind against tide areas to avoid today (in 100m of water!)

4/ Finally (and this shows what sort of boaty I am...) The radar will show you the birds diving on a school of fish so even if you are passaging you can deviate maybe 1 degree to troll right through the middle of a school of fish

[Gerrit Coetzee]

Sept 2019 left Anagada for St.Maartin.
10hr sailing trip at 7,5kt it should be with NE wind sailing East in 18kt wind, a straight saileg without any jibing . Early set out for additional safety precautions.

All is important as this "short" 80nm trip would be my longest trip in the first year of living aboard and sailing.
I do not want to venture in the dark of night (yet).

Soon after departure the wind changed East , coming straight ahead. Tacking would lengthen my trip out of time plan. Decided to motor cruise in straight line rather to make deadline.

Wind picks up to 23kts and swells dead ahead slows my SOG speed over ground down to 4kts - 4,5kts, thus doubling my travelling time.

I would not make destination anyway close to reach it in day light.

23pm, tired, decided to change course to the closest and only nearby island to anchor / moor there for the night.

Rain started in between , so keeping a lookout was minimised to bare minimum, and New Moon phase left surroundings pitch dark.

I tracked a new course from Dog Island to my current position, giving me a 3hr ETA.

For those who did not pick-up on this error: I track route from island to me, instead of from my position to island.
So I could not rely on remaining ETA.

The Chartplotter has only a 1nm map of surrounding area of Dog Island, but outside the area the zoom in/out function would jump to larger scales , making it impossible for me to estimate effectively my proximity to the island.

Had my radar on, which for all the way would show nothing, because there was nothing.

According to my instrumentation my destination remained at 3 hours, because of the reversed order plotting.

I could see nothing. At 6nm effectively (in my mind/instruments I am still 3hrs out) , a strange round seemingly moving object appeared on radar screen, closing in. My first use of radar was scary.

At 3nm it dawned on me that at 2:00 that by some wonder, this must somehow be my destination, which was arrived at. Still pitch black night, still good not see a thing even with the rain stopping, we could only see mooring ball once I was right upon one.

Without radar I would have missed it . Worse, one or two degrees off course, would have seen me steaming right into Dog Island if for 1nm I was not at the helm for whatever reason.

Be it a GPS, be it Radar, any additional equipment has one thing in common - to assist in arriving safely, where others may have not.

If all goes well, we need nothing I guess. For me it was a life and/or vessel saver.

[Mystic38]

This, is just flat out not true.. a small skiff with an outboard has an acceptable radar signature assuming a trained eye and well tuned system.. and that 95ft steel trawler that is not sending an AIS signal is more than pretty obvious even to the oblivious.

and no, we are not all agreeing that radar is "nice" to have either.. I do not agree at all.. to me a Radar is "essential" and AIS is "nice to have"

your money your choices, but please do not state generalizations that are clearly untrue

Originally Posted by Mediator

I think we can all agree that radar is a nice thing to have. I use mine for every overnight passage and it greatly helps with situational awareness. However, sometimes we can't afford to have every nice piece of navigational equipment, so then we have to choose what to prioritize.

If I had an extra $1000 to spend on navigational equipment and I was preparing for a bluewater passage, I would purchase a class B AIS transceiver over radar any day. From a safety perspective, I am far less worried about hitting a fishing boat at night or in fog than being run down by a tanker.

Keep in mind that most of the small boats that don't have AIS will not have a good radar signature. I also don't think either radar or AIS (or both) is a substitute for maintaining a constant watch.

[PegasusIX]

The suggestion in last post that if you rely on the chart plotter you could be on land doesn’t make sense. Just read your chart plotter and depth sounder together. If your depth is 20m look at chart plotter and you will be on the 20m contour. If there is an error in chart then you can correct be reference to chart plotter. If you are so close to land that you could be on it, your main instrument should be your eyeball.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by PegasusIX

The suggestion in last post that if you rely on the chart plotter you could be on land doesn’t make sense. Just read your chart plotter and depth sounder together. If your depth is 20m look at chart plotter and you will be on the 20m contour. If there is an error in chart then you can correct be reference to chart plotter. If you are so close to land that you could be on it, your main instrument should be your eyeball.

Dont be silly.. that means taking your eye off the Play Stations..

[sv Stella Maris]

Cruiser here in the Caribbean. Radar has saved me LOTS of money, stress, and potential injury by making visual approaching squalls at night or with poor visibility.

AIS is a novelty for me compared to radar.

[contrail]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Ahh.!!! They'll never get the buzz will they.
Most will probably rush to buy the first successful driverless car.

Having also cut my teeth in the age of Loran and no radar, like Boaty and others, and working as a captain, for my living, for the last twenty some years I have considered radar the most important thing, along with the depthsounder, installed on my boat. It IS possible to move with the times. I do agree that I am not interested in driverless cars, but that is exactly my point. Radar puts you in control of your situation, and AIS, like the driverless car, does not.


In my experience, radar needs proper operation, even the newest ones, and I would hazard that those who dismiss radar's abilities may be those who haven't learned thoroughly, or who believe the marketing that everything is now automatic, or who may not have even read the manual......I have a very capable and current model, but if adjusted improperly, or left on automatic, it can miss ships. If done correctly, I can distinguish between a mooring ball, the boat attached to it, and the dinghy trailing behind. So, it can be useless or very useful, depending upon the operator. I often have the radar on during clear conditions, in the day, the better to practice. I notice it's also usually better than the watchstander, who may be distracted, even during the day.....but that's another story.



Get the radar so you can miss those who don't have one; that way they can continue to prattle on about how useless it is. But, and it's a big but, do learn how to use it!

[boatman61]

Hey ho.!!!
Back for a prattle..
I dont say they are useless for those who feel the need for one.. by all means fill your boots if it helps you feel safer.
I only butt in to lend some variety to all the Songs of Praise..
I also dont much.like helm mounted chartplotters either, they destroy night vision, I keep my cp notebook down below, they dont need constant monitoring even in coastal waters except maybe near the Minkies or similar areas and in those areas I dont navigate by night anyway.
You enjoy your radar all you want and I will enjoy my way of sailing.

[nortonscove]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Hey ho.!!!
Back for a prattle..
I dont say they are useless for those who feel the need for one.. by all means fill your boots if it helps you feel safer.
I only butt in to lend some variety to all the Songs of Praise..
I also dont much.like helm mounted chartplotters either, they destroy night vision, I keep my cp notebook down below, they dont need constant monitoring even in coastal waters except maybe near the Minkies or similar areas and in those areas I dont navigate by night anyway.
You enjoy your radar all you want and I will enjoy my way of sailing.

I'm in Newfoundland and you can look up the world book of records to see the most frequent and densest fog on the planet. We also have an incredible number of boats not transmitting or receiving AIS. It's not a matter of feeling safer when you combine these two things. It simply is being safer or at least the best practice.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by nortonscove

I'm in Newfoundland and you can look up the world book of records to see the most frequent and densest fog on the planet. We also have an incredible number of boats not transmitting or receiving AIS. It's not a matter of feeling safer when you combine these two things. It simply is being safer or at least the best practice.

Well its horses for courses, I dont sail N of UK's S coast (52-54N) if I can help it but fog happens there and further S around Galicia and along the Portuguese coast.. lotsa boats, pots and stuff to put up with and I cope just fine.
Some folk hug the coast when the fog comes.. I head out to where its clearer.. fewer pillocks out for the day.
No schedules.

[markpierce]

Consider this close to ideal:

[davefromoregon]

Funny how many of us from the PNW are weighing in here.

My experience mirrors what most have said, it is really nice to know what is really out there as opposed to what chooses to identify itself.

I had a recent experience where we were heading east from Astoria to Portland in the middle of the night. We had radar, AIS, and someone looking back from the cockpit. All three systems failed to detect a dredge coming up behind us until he flashed his lights. To be fair, it was a very curvy part of the river so neither radar nor the lookout were likely to see him. The dredge hadn’t appeared on AIS.

After he flashed us, I got onto the radio and we sorted out who was going to be where and all was well.

I guess the moral of my story is that more eyes/tools are better than fewer.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

I have to say, I'm surprised at the percentage of people who believe AIS + Chart plotter is sufficient on a cruiser's forum. Chart plotter tells you what is supposed to be there - radar tells you what is actually there. No different than depth - would anyone trust a chart plotter's stated depths over their vessels actual depth sounder?

I took the attached picture about 15-years ago - somewhere between Acapulco and Huatulco (trawler delivery from Long Beach to Florida). Note the difference between plotter and radar on the right: according to the plotter, vessel is on the beach vs 1nm off. Imagine a moonless night along a deserted light-less coastline. Now imagine the chart plotter is wrong in the other direction......where you think you're on water but you're not.

As far as AIS, it's a great tool, but cruisers often traverse developing countries where an outboard Panga is the most common vessel.

Radar gives reliable information unavailable anywhere else - where the hard stuff actual is. I would hate to chose, but if pressed, no thought required: give me the radar.

Attachment 198855

Radar has a saved my bacon a few times. Blind harbor safe entry in 10 ft seas on a lee shore, landing in a foreign country at night in the dark, etc.

[az_r2d1]

Originally Posted by davefromoregon

Funny how many of us from the PNW are weighing in here.

My experience mirrors what most have said, it is really nice to know what is really out there as opposed to what chooses to identify itself.

I had a recent experience where we were heading east from Astoria to Portland in the middle of the night. We had radar, AIS, and someone looking back from the cockpit. All three systems failed to detect a dredge coming up behind us until he flashed his lights. To be fair, it was a very curvy part of the river so neither radar nor the lookout were likely to see him. The dredge hadn’t appeared on AIS.

After he flashed us, I got onto the radio and we sorted out who was going to be where and all was well.

I guess the moral of my story is that more eyes/tools are better than fewer.

Having a radar versus knowing how to use it is a whole different story.
My dad had radar on his boat but he didn't have a clue how to use it.

Add some choppy water makes it even more interesting.

[mdenize]

Originally Posted by az_r2d1

Having a radar versus knowing how to use it is a whole different story.
My dad had radar on his boat but he didn't have a clue how to use it.

Add some choppy water makes it even more interesting.

Too true.

The best way to be familiar with what you are looking at on radar screen is to use it during the day with good visibility after all it can only see what you can but in 2D. I use mine all the time and so when I am motoring in the dark on a stormy moonless night there are no surprises