Sailing vessel and RORO ship on collision courses - what do you think of the outcome?

[svfinlandia]

Originally Posted by sandy stone

Very well put. When I come across commercial boats I try to remember that I'm out here playing, and they're out here working. That may not exactly apply to the OP's situation, but still...

+1

Al, S/V Finlandia

[Stu Jackson]

Thanks for the entertainment, fellas.


But this is a re-re-re-re-run.


Kinda like being forced to watch reruns of Friends!


WAFI and COLREGS are such great search terms.


Thanks to jmh and dh for their usual superb references (NOT "interpretations") of COLREGS.


I know, I know, nobody forced me to watch. Although I did spend a month in an Irish farmhouse on a house exchange and that's all that was on TV. I do recall it had subtitles, too.


Thanks again.

[Montanan]

I know, I know there isn't any Right of Way listed in COLREGs.

But I just couldn't resist.

When one hears a boater speak of Right of Way, well right away, I realize they are not quite up on their knowledge of the subject.

This looks like one of those situations where Ship Is Going To Happen.

[Quadrille in JB]

Don’t be stupid. Head up and pass behind the commercial vessel. The outcome in a collision would definitely have you as the loser. A sunken vessel and most likely a lost crew. Get a brain. ROW or not.

[Snore]

Originally Posted by Rob_P

Oh my... the dreaded "I have more experience than you do, noob" post.




At this moment in time, I have the ColRegs right in front of me because I have my ASA 101 test in a couple of weeks and a mini-quiz coming up on Thursday about them.

Please tell me what rule mandates a 1Nm clear space between a pleasure craft / sailing vessel and any / all commercial vessels in open water? What rule mandates a .5Nm clear space in inland waters? Further, do either of those rules apply inside the harbor? What about when coming into a crowded anchorage? And what rule requires that the stand-on vessel contact the approaching vessel earlier than when the stand-on vessel deems necessary? Is this the armchair captain rule that I've heard of?

Clearly, as a NOOB, I need this information since I can't find any of these rules in the ColRegs and my instructor hasn't mentioned them to me at all. Plus, with a quiz/test coming up, I'm positive that I'm going to fail if I don't know those particular rules.

Maybe these rules are in some appendix someplace? But, since I had mine removed as a kid, I don't have one. Which now has me wondering if that's going to be a problem.

Do only "real mariner's" have an appendix?

Well— so glad that you have mastered sarcasm. Keep in mind you are the person who announced he was a newbie and then called folks stupid.

Now let’s try working on reading the wording of the post —- you will note I stated that “I try” when referencing the clearance to other vessels. I never said that buffer was in COLREGS.

When encountering other vessels, I try for that separation, 1 mile or more offshore, 1/2 mile near shore and whatever I can get in a harbor. Not COLREGS just what I see as safe seamanship

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Montanan

...there isn't any Right of Way listed in COLREGs.

...When one hears a boater speak of Right of Way, well right away, I realize they are not quite up on their knowledge of the subject

Originally Posted by Quadrille in JB

Don’t be stupid. Head up and pass behind the commercial vessel. The outcome in a collision would definitely have you as the loser. A sunken vessel and most likely a lost crew. Get a brain. ROW or not.

Perfect timing, as if on cue...

[Uricanejack]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Not to take anything away from this excellent and correct post, but even when you don't fall under Rule 17(c) because you are under sail


(A power-driven vessel which takes action in a crossing situation in accordance with subparagraph (a)(ii) of this Rule to avoid collision with another power-driven vessel shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, not alter course to port for a vessel on her own port side.)

Again I agree with you about passing astern.
I certainly prefer passing astern.
My level of comfort with a CPA will be much more if the other vessel is passing ahead.

However if the other vessel is required to give way, I would expect to see an alteration to pass astern of me.
If I see this I am happy.
If not I am concerned.
If I decide to act by rule 17 it affects when. And I will prefer to turn away.


It is a good idea to avoid altering to port for a vessel on your port side, or to be very careful when doing so when you must. That is because if the other vessel wakes up suddenly and alters to starboard, you could easily be steering into each other. This situation can be really dangerous -- the closing speed will be suddenly increased, and a collision can develop with amazing speed.



I am in general against unnecessary radio chatter for collision avoidance, but I ALWAYS call if I'm altering to port, to make damn sure he's not just about to alter to starboard. You can get in a lot of trouble this way; care is required.



And I DO alter to port sometimes when I'm under sail and a vessel to my own port is not maneuvering. It's required if you want to pass behind, which I strongly prefer in relation to a much faster vessel and especially if I'm under sail with the risk of lulls in the wind.

Hi.

Again your knowledge is very good.
You have quoted the rule accurately.

I quite agree with your take on the use of the radio.
If you just follow the rules the radio is not required.

Why does rule 17 specifically advise a stand on power driven vessel not to alter to port when acting to avoid collision in a crossing situation?

Simple, to avoid turning to words the givevway vessel.
In a particular situation where the give way vessel has been advised by the rules to avoid crossing ahead.

So why does this not apply to rule 18.

Quite simple.

Rule 18 situations.

A give way vessel eg the power driven vessel may find it is the give way vessel a stand on vessel which may be on either port or starboard side.

An alteration to pass astern still makes perfect common sense. Or is consistent with the practice of seamen.

Hence the give way vessel may alter to port or starboard to pass astern of the stand on vessel.

Which may be Sailing, Fishing, Restricted, ect.

In a situation where the give way vessel finds the stand on vessel is crossing from port.

A port alteration to pass aster is the general preference, for the same logical reasons a standard two power driven vessel crossing situation a alteration to starboard by the give way vessel is the general preferable.

Apply common sense or the practice of good seamen. When rule 18 is involved.
The requirement to avoid an alternation to port not only no longer applies it may make no sense.
If the give way vessel is to your starboard side.

Hence my recommendation for a stand on vessel to avoid altering course passing astern of a give way vessel in this situation.

The rule 17 doesn’t go into the detail of each possible situation just the regular power driven vessel crossing situation.

The rest is common sense. Or the practice of good seamen.
The logic of why is still there.

The alteration to port is never actually prohibited. It is just kind of hard to justify.

In some circumstances an alteration to port is actually the best recommendation.

The power driven vessel with a sailing vessel crossing from its port side is one of those circumstances.

It logically follows.

The sailing vessel with a give way power driven vessel crossing from her starboard side is one of those circumstances.
Acting on its own according to rule 17.
The recommendation not to alter to port does not make sense and does not apply to this particular case.

[Montanan]

When is too close, too close?

Do any of these look too close?

I particularly like the one where they are trying to pass under the anchor rode.

[onestepcsy37]

Bahamian sailing rule
De biggest boat got de right o way

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Uricanejack

Hi.

Again your knowledge is very good.
You have quoted the rule accurately.

I quite agree with your take on the use of the radio.
If you just follow the rules the radio is not required.

Why does rule 17 specifically advise a stand on power driven vessel not to alter to port when acting to avoid collision in a crossing situation?

Simple, to avoid turning to words the givevway vessel.
In a particular situation where the give way vessel has been advised by the rules to avoid crossing ahead.

So why does this not apply to rule 18.

Quite simple.

Rule 18 situations.

A give way vessel eg the power driven vessel may find it is the give way vessel a stand on vessel which may be on either port or starboard side.

An alteration to pass astern still makes perfect common sense. Or is consistent with the practice of seamen.

Hence the give way vessel may alter to port or starboard to pass astern of the stand on vessel.

Which may be Sailing, Fishing, Restricted, ect.

In a situation where the give way vessel finds the stand on vessel is crossing from port.

A port alteration to pass aster is the general preference, for the same logical reasons a standard two power driven vessel crossing situation a alteration to starboard by the give way vessel is the general preferable.

Apply common sense or the practice of good seamen. When rule 18 is involved.
The requirement to avoid an alternation to port not only no longer applies it may make no sense.
If the give way vessel is to your starboard side.

Hence my recommendation for a stand on vessel to avoid altering course passing astern of a give way vessel in this situation.

The rule 17 doesn’t go into the detail of each possible situation just the regular power driven vessel crossing situation.

The rest is common sense. Or the practice of good seamen.
The logic of why is still there.

The alteration to port is never actually prohibited. It is just kind of hard to justify.

In some circumstances an alteration to port is actually the best recommendation.

The power driven vessel with a sailing vessel crossing from its port side is one of those circumstances.

It logically follows.

The sailing vessel with a give way power driven vessel crossing from her starboard side is one of those circumstances.
Acting on its own according to rule 17.
The recommendation not to alter to port does not make sense and does not apply to this particular case.

Totally agree, impeccable logic. And that is in fact the way the Rules are written and why they are written that way.



Just be aware of how dangerous it can be, to alter to port, to a vessel to your port, and make sure he knows what you are doing. That was my only point.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by garyfdl

The whole point of my initial comment was: common sense should prevail, COLREG notwithstanding.

Beg to disagree. There is no conflict between the Rules and INFORMED common sense. So if you need the "notwithstanding", you're doing it wrong.


Rule 2, the most important of them, does not allow you to rest on the letter of the Rules -- you are obligated by the "ordinary practice of seamen" -- i.e. good seamanship -- above and beyond the letter of the Rules. But that is not "notwithstanding", that is rather "in addition to".

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

There is no such "law" - please stop repeating this fallacy.

Ever hear of the laws of physics...try to ignore it, and you are free to put that on your tombstone if you believe it so badly.

[Be Free]

Originally Posted by requiem

... I suppose a driving analogy would be someone coming to California, observing people making right turns on a red light, and then doing the same themselves, all whilst feeling a bit of an illicit thrill for this bit of rule-breaking.

(Spoiler: right-on-red is legal in California)

...

Spoiler spoiler: right-on-red has been legal in all 50 states since 1980.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Ever hear of the laws of physics...try to ignore it, and you are free to put that on your tombstone if you believe it so badly.

We are discussing the COLREGS here - not physics

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Rob_P

. . . Please tell me what rule mandates a 1Nm clear space between a pleasure craft / sailing vessel and any / all commercial vessels in open water? What rule mandates a .5Nm clear space in inland waters? Further, do either of those rules apply inside the harbor? What about when coming into a crowded anchorage? And what rule requires that the stand-on vessel contact the approaching vessel earlier than when the stand-on vessel deems necessary? Is this the armchair captain rule that I've heard of?. . .

What rule? Why Rule 2, the "oridinary practice of seamen". This is the very opposite of any "armchair captain rule" -- this is the accepted practice, on the contrary, of experienced mariners.

An extremely important aspect of collision avoidance when dealing with large commercial vessels is to get into synch with the time and distance scales for different actions, which are customary for them. The process doesn't work if you, for example, consider the risk of collision only just arising at that point when they consider you to be in extremis. The main point of the Rules is to coordinate actions between crossing vessels.

One mile minimum CPA is typical standing orders on the bridges of commercial vessels in most circumstances outside harbours and approaches to harbours. Two miles in really open water is not uncommon. That is not chosen arbitraritly -- if you maneuver to maintain minimum one mile CPA that more or less gives you the room to correct mistakes and deal with the "cone of uncertainty" about the other vessels future position as the crossing develops. Much less than that and the risk rapidly increases that you can give into a dangerous situation without any time or space in reserve to fix it. If you want to deal smoothly with commercial traffic, then you had best follow the same one mile minimum CPA rule. It is a real thing.

This might be reduced by necessity to half a mile in really crowded waters but that requires then 10 times the concentration to keep every crossing safe.

Spend some time in the English Channel, Dover Straits, North Sea, German Bight, the busiest shipping lanes in the world, and you learn this REAL fast.

In harbours and approaches, where there are fairways and channels, this is all out the window, because the cone of uncertainty about future position of the ship has been eliminated by the fairway or channel. For a pleasure vessel the job because extremely simple -- just stay out of the channels and fairways until the coast is clear. You don't need to calculate or worry about CPA at all as long as you can stop short of the edge of the channel. You will not be giving way or standing on in these circumstances either because Rule 9 will be in effect. Don't impede! Stay out of their way!

The post you are responding to sarcastically is exactly correct and correctly describes the practice among professionals and experienced amateurs. Printing it out and keeping a copy on board would not be a bad idea for you.