Sailing vessel and RORO ship on collision courses - what do you think of the outcome?

[Pelagic]

Thanks fxytky
Just as I had imagined.... no big deal, just an iritation.
Regarding the other ships
....as Meatloaf would sing....
...Two out of Three aint Bad[emoji6]

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by fxykty

OP here...

...Earlier, two other ships, one a similar RORO and the other a larger container ship, going in the same direction (towards Auckland harbour limits from the north, still 10 miles distant to the harbour limit) had previously altered their respective courses 10-15 degrees to port to go astern of us. Both did so at about 3 and 5 miles distance from us respectively.

That is entirely what I would have expected them to do given the situation.

None of the made up nonsense suggested here about 'working vs playing' or (non existent) 'rules/laws of tonnage', etc.

Those two ships simply complied with their obligations under the COLREGS. Well done to them

Pity that the third one appeared too lazy to do so. Poor show from their side

[Uricanejack]

Originally Posted by fxykty

OP here, both heartened and dismayed by the discussion. But thrilled (truly) that a particular situation can be used to engage a community and for education.

Some additional context:

The conditions were unlimited visibility and moderate steady breeze. We were sailing on autopilot set to AWA, with heading changes less than 5 degrees over the previous 2 hours.

Our course was 20 degrees higher than our next waypoint due to wind angle, so I did prefer to stand on if possible. Also, given the apparent wind speed, we would have been (and were) over the sail’s wind limit on hardening up.

Earlier, two other ships, one a similar RORO and the other a larger container ship, going in the same direction (towards Auckland harbour limits from the north, still 10 miles distant to the harbour limit) had previously altered their respective courses 10-15 degrees to port to go astern of us. Both did so at about 3 and 5 miles distance from us respectively.

So, my expectation was that the third ship would act the same way. It didn’t. I was giving it a chance to act, as altering to go astern would have put me right on top of them if they did the same as the other ships.

When it was clearly apparent that the ship wasn’t going to alter course or slow down (nor speed up), I called them on the radio as described in my original post.

Was I challenging the ship or trying to force them to give way? Absolutely not!

Drama? None!! The voice over the radio was relaxed and I was relaxed. I reached over to turn off the autopilot, turned the wheel to a clearing bearing, and wound in the sheet partially and let the gennaker luff to avoid overloading it. Plenty of time and given the conditions, plenty of room.

Was the radio call left too late? Perhaps, though given the conditions and the relatively slow speeds of both vessels nothing was happening quickly. Open ocean, I would call at 12 miles or so, but with slower speeds and busier traffic, 3-5 miles usually. This time, I obviously left it later, waiting for the expected course change.

Was my course change drastic after the radio call? No, only 30 degrees at first, then curving back to port (leeward) as the ship moved past. Interestingly, there were two power yachts (15-20 metres long each) that plowed through the gap between us and the ship’s stern as we approached the wake.

Did I increase speed or course? Not intentionally, and speed by not more than 1 knot. Course by not more than 3-4 degrees.

Was it enough to throw off a clearing calculation by the ship? Possibly, but that would imply they were happy for a very close pass in front of us with our original speed. That’s the source of my ‘WTF’.

The only quibble with what I did was waiting so long before contacting the ship. Except for that, I still believe my actions as stand on vessel were correct.

Carry on...

I may be in the minority but I concur your actions were fine.
You did what you had to do when you had to do it.
Your intent clear unmistakable.

It’s an unusual situation, generally we would all expect the action taken by the first two ships.

Bon voyage,

[wesevans]

The RORO exercised what I refer to as the right of tonnage. big has the right of way just the way it is.

[CORALSEA TRAMP]

Going back to the ORIGONAL whinge. YOU correctly called the RORO and enquired his intentions--He replied he would maintain his course--You advised that you would need to alter to pass astern. His advice was to proceed !!! YOU instigated the exchange and YOU supplied the solution.
YOU correctly followed your own advice.
What is your native language?

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by CORALSEA TRAMP

Going back to the ORIGONAL whinge. YOU correctly called the RORO and enquired his intentions--He replied he would maintain his course--You advised that you would need to alter to pass astern. His advice was to proceed !!! YOU instigated the exchange and YOU supplied the solution.
YOU correctly followed your own advice.
What is your native language?

I think this brings up a very fine point worth reviewing if you are speaking via VHF with the other vessel.

The need to clearly define what actions SHOULD be taken by the give way vessel according to the Rules

In this case call and identify both via Name/Aspect/CPA/TCPA as per AIS and request that the give way vessel alters course to starboard by at least ?? degrees so as to pass safely astern of you.

It is not the language but the proper content of the message that is important.

Obviously you have plan B to safely pass astern if refused, but consider this.....

Within the Rules, does the "give way" or "burdened" vessel's status ever change and if so....
..When?

[sailingabe41ds]

[chrisr]

Originally Posted by fxykty

OP here, both heartened and dismayed by the discussion. But thrilled (truly) that a particular situation can be used to engage a community and for education.

Some additional context:

The conditions were unlimited visibility and moderate steady breeze. We were sailing on autopilot set to AWA, with heading changes less than 5 degrees over the previous 2 hours.

Our course was 20 degrees higher than our next waypoint due to wind angle, so I did prefer to stand on if possible. Also, given the apparent wind speed, we would have been (and were) over the sail’s wind limit on hardening up.

Earlier, two other ships, one a similar RORO and the other a larger container ship, going in the same direction (towards Auckland harbour limits from the north, still 10 miles distant to the harbour limit) had previously altered their respective courses 10-15 degrees to port to go astern of us. Both did so at about 3 and 5 miles distance from us respectively.

So, my expectation was that the third ship would act the same way. It didn’t. I was giving it a chance to act, as altering to go astern would have put me right on top of them if they did the same as the other ships.

When it was clearly apparent that the ship wasn’t going to alter course or slow down (nor speed up), I called them on the radio as described in my original post.

Was I challenging the ship or trying to force them to give way? Absolutely not!

Drama? None!! The voice over the radio was relaxed and I was relaxed. I reached over to turn off the autopilot, turned the wheel to a clearing bearing, and wound in the sheet partially and let the gennaker luff to avoid overloading it. Plenty of time and given the conditions, plenty of room.

Was the radio call left too late? Perhaps, though given the conditions and the relatively slow speeds of both vessels nothing was happening quickly. Open ocean, I would call at 12 miles or so, but with slower speeds and busier traffic, 3-5 miles usually. This time, I obviously left it later, waiting for the expected course change.

Was my course change drastic after the radio call? No, only 30 degrees at first, then curving back to port (leeward) as the ship moved past. Interestingly, there were two power yachts (15-20 metres long each) that plowed through the gap between us and the ship’s stern as we approached the wake.

Did I increase speed or course? Not intentionally, and speed by not more than 1 knot. Course by not more than 3-4 degrees.

Was it enough to throw off a clearing calculation by the ship? Possibly, but that would imply they were happy for a very close pass in front of us with our original speed. That’s the source of my ‘WTF’.

The only quibble with what I did was waiting so long before contacting the ship. Except for that, I still believe my actions as stand on vessel were correct.

Carry on...

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cheers,

[StuM]

Originally Posted by wesevans

The RORO exercised what I refer to as the right of tonnage. big has the right of way just the way it is.

YADH!


(Yet another **** ****)

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Within the Rules, does the "give way" or "burdened" vessel's status ever change and if so....
..When?

No such concept as "burdened" within the rules

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by StuM

No such concept as "burdened" within the rules

Yes, that was an old term.used in marine casulty courts.....just showing my age

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Donald Bryden

. . . The problem with just taking evasive action without contact is you have no was of knowing the ships intentions. It may be planning a turn at just the wrong time and may nail you.. . .

I'm not saying you should never call (although the MCA did say exactly that, once upon a time: https://assets.publishing.service.go...22/mgn324c.pdf

But radio calls should NOT be your primary way of understanding what other vessel's intentions are.

Your primary way of understanding what other vessel's intentions are is a thorough knowledge of the Rules and the order of maneuvering established by the Rules, and the timings and distances for the different stages of maneuvering which are customary. It is extremely amateurish and can be dangerous to try to substitute all of that with radio calls.

When all vessels are following the Rules then the intentions are normally clear. Stand on vessel stands on, give way vessel gives way. If give way vessel does not give way, then stand on vessel maneuvers itself. When the stand on vessel understands the time frames when the give way vessel would normally be giving way, then it knows the right timing for making its own move (NB, that's not 5 cables out). This does not normally require a radio call.

But a radio call can be very helpful if there are some special circumstances which make it hard to discern the other vessels intentions, or to inform of unusual intentions of your own.

[Ken Z]

A commerical ship. Larger than the sailing vessel. Plenty of time and space. Looks like 2 choices, get rammed sink your boat maybe die, or alter course, a big WOW, maybe this post needs to be on a nascar forum

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by fxykty

OP here, both heartened and dismayed by the discussion. But thrilled (truly) that a particular situation can be used to engage a community and for education.

Some additional context:

The conditions were unlimited visibility and moderate steady breeze. We were sailing on autopilot set to AWA, with heading changes less than 5 degrees over the previous 2 hours.

Our course was 20 degrees higher than our next waypoint due to wind angle, so I did prefer to stand on if possible. Also, given the apparent wind speed, we would have been (and were) over the sail’s wind limit on hardening up.

Earlier, two other ships, one a similar RORO and the other a larger container ship, going in the same direction (towards Auckland harbour limits from the north, still 10 miles distant to the harbour limit) had previously altered their respective courses 10-15 degrees to port to go astern of us. Both did so at about 3 and 5 miles distance from us respectively.

So, my expectation was that the third ship would act the same way. It didn’t. I was giving it a chance to act, as altering to go astern would have put me right on top of them if they did the same as the other ships.

When it was clearly apparent that the ship wasn’t going to alter course or slow down (nor speed up), I called them on the radio as described in my original post.

Was I challenging the ship or trying to force them to give way? Absolutely not!

Drama? None!! The voice over the radio was relaxed and I was relaxed. I reached over to turn off the autopilot, turned the wheel to a clearing bearing, and wound in the sheet partially and let the gennaker luff to avoid overloading it. Plenty of time and given the conditions, plenty of room.

Was the radio call left too late? Perhaps, though given the conditions and the relatively slow speeds of both vessels nothing was happening quickly. Open ocean, I would call at 12 miles or so, but with slower speeds and busier traffic, 3-5 miles usually. This time, I obviously left it later, waiting for the expected course change.

Was my course change drastic after the radio call? No, only 30 degrees at first, then curving back to port (leeward) as the ship moved past. Interestingly, there were two power yachts (15-20 metres long each) that plowed through the gap between us and the ship’s stern as we approached the wake.

Did I increase speed or course? Not intentionally, and speed by not more than 1 knot. Course by not more than 3-4 degrees.

Was it enough to throw off a clearing calculation by the ship? Possibly, but that would imply they were happy for a very close pass in front of us with our original speed. That’s the source of my ‘WTF’.

The only quibble with what I did was waiting so long before contacting the ship. Except for that, I still believe my actions as stand on vessel were correct.

Carry on...

With these details, it sounds somewhat better.

You've asked for a critique of your process (which is a very good thing; kudos to you for that), so here is mine:

1. The only purpose of standing on is to allow the other vessel a free hand, during a limited time from, to work out the crossing. Think of it as a courtesy to the give-way vessel. Don't overdo it -- as soon as he has not maneuvered in the time frames he normally should, you should get busy. There was nothing wrong with your standing on at first, and nothing wrong with your hoping that he would maneuver, but you kept doing it well past the point when it was clear he was not maneuvering.

2. You waited far too late to take action and unnecessarily got yourself into a dangerous close quarters situation with options dwindling to nothing. If you did not perceive "drama" approaching a collision point at 10 knots from 5 cables away, you seriously need to adjust your perception. If the ship has slightly altered towards you, and you had perceived that alteration even half a minute later, then you're dead -- you have no more ability to get out of the way. Closing speed was what -- 15 knots? 18 knots? A cable evaporates in 20 seconds (!!) at that closing speed. At 5 cables you are 100 seconds from death! By 3 or 4 cables out, you are not even visible from the bridge of many large ships -- you have disappeared under the bow. You do not want to be anywhere near there.

The approximate time/distance frames, if this was really open water, would be something like: (a) 10 miles -- detection and evaluation of the situation; (b) 4-5 miles you would expect the ship to be maneuvering; (c) 3-4 miles you are preparing your own maneuver OR you are agreeing something else; (d) by about 3 miles you make your own move or be sure he has made his; (e) at 2 miles if the situation isn't resolved, take really decisive action no matter what was previously agreed. In all of this aim for a CPA no less than a mile, unless you are passing behind, then you might shave that somewhat.

3. Not wanting to alter course because you are hard on the wind is one of those special circumstances which justifies a radio call (in my view). He can't know about your special problem without a call, and 99% of pro mariners (in my experience) are happy to oblige if you need a favor like this, even if they are stand on. The radio call should be make plenty early, at least say 5 miles out, and should go something like this:

"MV Titan MV Titan, this is SV Minnow SV Minnow, over. 06? Titan, good afternoon. I am the sailing vessel 5 miles off your port bow. I am under sail. I plot me passing 2 cables ahead of you in one eight minutes. Do you intend to alter course, over? Titan, I would be grateful if you could alter to starboard to allow me to pass a mile behind; I'm hard on the wind and it would be difficult for me to alter myself, over. Much obliged, good watch. Minnow out."

Then you have 14 minutes or whatever to observe and clearly confirm that you are passing well behind. And if that doesn't happen for any reason whatsoever, you still have time to calmly do something else.

And if he doesn't answer or has some reason of his own not to alter course, you likewise have plenty of time to deal with it in a different way.

Time and space is never in unlimited supply --- there will be other traffic, hazards, whatever. So you can't do all this 20 miles out. And time and space are related by speed, so the distance frames may be stretched or compressed with different speeds, and different relative speeds. But you should carry out your process in a way which gives you time and space to solve problems and to execute Plan B if the first thing you do doesn't work.

[malcolmlj]

To quote an ex Royal Navy Captain friend of mine "little boats get out of the way of big boats"
It is easier for a yacht to manoeuvre than a big ferry, pragmatism rules KO !!