Sailing vessel and RORO ship on collision courses - what do you think of the outcome?

[Rob_P]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Are you seriously saying the Staten Island ferries don't follow the rules?

Yes he is. And so are a lot of others.

I think the point being lost here is that COLREGS requires certain behavior by all mariners. When the helmsman of any vessel doesn't abide by the requirements in the COLREGS, things can go south in a hurry.

The hierarchy in the COLREGS is clear. The obligations applicable to each vessel in the COLREGS is clear.

Standing orders to bridge personnel, normal practice of locals, law of tonnage, and all the rest of it be damned, the COLREGS are clear as to which vessel is supposed to do what.

Failure on the part of 1 vessel to obey the rules doesn't make the other guy, who IS following the rules, a damfool. What it means is that the vessel which is following the rules now needs to invoke other rules in order to save the situation from getting worse than it already is.

To some people that seems to mean that they abdicate their position in the hierarchy to a lesser standing than the lower hierarchy vessel has. Which is, essentially, a race to the bottom of the ladder while claiming that the one who gets there first is "the winner." Meanwhile everyone else is left wondering what the heck is going on and how do they stay out of the way of the maniac randomly zig zagging all over the place.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Where are you from?
Are you seriously saying the Staten Island ferries don't follow the rules?

There is some truth to the "local rules" mindset in some places, like Hong Kong and NY, but that has nothing to do with this discussion.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Yeah that trimaran is sailing awfully close to sailboard it may or may not be overtaking.

In the photo with the red ship, Argent Iris, they aren’t close enough, that was a rescue situation.

Ah, well that explains the situation, so the yacht was coming to the rescue aid of the Argent Iris, well good on them.

Bringing the yacht alongside in rough sea state would be tricky to avail the ship's crew to descend to the safety of the sailboat, especially given the mast and rigging would tend to be bashing on the starboard side of the ship.

As to the sailboard and the trimaran, Fivecapes was kind enough to send me by private message the video link below of similar action. Looks like a grand time with the variety of sail and kite boards.



https://youtu.be/FWINygISxDE?t=63

[Montanan]

The purpose of COLREGs is to avoid collisions. They apply when there is a risk of collision. If one takes action to safeguard the vessels before there is a risk of collision, one is assured to be in compliance with COLREGs because they do not apply, hence you can't be in non-compliance. Act early and decisively.

The Seamanship Center:

https://seamanship.ie/col-regs-rule-...ame%20position.

Snipet therefrom:

The Rules do not state what risk of collision is or when it exists. Risk of collision exists when two vessels are following courses that would take them to the same position in a few minutes. Risk of collision would NOT exist for two slow-moving vessels 16 miles apart heading for the same position.

A definition of when the Regulations apply for risk of collision is, “They only apply at a time, when, if either of them does anything contrary to the Regulations, it will cause danger of collision. None of the Regulations apply unless that period of time has arrived. It follows that anything done before the time arrives at which the Regulations apply is immaterial, because anything done before that time cannot produce risk of collision within the meaning of the Regulations”. (Lord Esher, 1887)

When determining risk of collision a number of factors are involved:

Closest distance of approach
Type of waterway
Vessel size and manoeuvrability
Speed
Distance out from closest point of approach
Relative bearing

[Pelagic]

[QUOTE=Nani Kai;3339958]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Force the issue???!!!??? ROTFLAPM

I simply waited to give the ship opportunity to do what it should to avoid collision. Note that 5 miles, if the ship was making its usual 20 knots, is not very far at all and certainly within risk of collision time. QUOTE)



I have been on both sides of this issue, as a cruiser and also as captain of a commercial vessel. The best resolution in my experience is for the non-commercial boat to hail the commercial vessel, the earlier the better, politely explain your concerns about the situation and then, here is the important point, ASK the commercial captain "what would you like me to do?". The options for the commercial vessel are often limited and by asking the question you are indicating your willingness to participate in a co-ordinated response that works for both vessels.

The captain of a 1200' Japanese vessel coming out of Beaufort NC responded to such a request from me one stormy night by altering his speed sufficiently to eliminate any risk of collision. Totally unexpected on my part and extremely courteous on his.

I can not tell you how refreshing it is to hear a recreational captain show respect rather than disdain to a professional captain. Try it.

That all sounds a bit condescending to me.

Like you, I have commanded bridges both big and small and in between with large Superyachts.

On Superyachts, I've witnessed many deep seas make dramatic course changes to have a closer look, forcing me to queerie their intentions.

I do agree that whenever a large ship is in retricted waters, you do whatever you can to help that ship out.

But in open waters..... respect works both ways.

The deep sea captains who impress me the most......are the ones who when making their approaches, see a small sailboat on a reciprocal, struggling against a headwind and sloppy seas

They call them to confirm passing intentions ... often adjusting to make it easier for the sailboat.

That is what a professional should do.... not ignore and try to intimidate!

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Montanan

The Seamanship Center:

Snipet therefrom:

The Rules do not state what risk of collision is or when it exists.

I would suggest you learn the Rules from another source, preferably one that knows the rules. Rule 7(d)(i) specifically tells you when risk of collision is deemed to exist.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Montanan

The Rules do not state what risk of collision is or when it exists...

...When determining risk of collision a number of factors are involved:

Closest distance of approach
Type of waterway
Vessel size and manoeuvrability
Speed
Distance out from closest point of approach
Relative bearing

^^^

Originally Posted by Lodesman

I would suggest you learn the Rules from another source, preferably one that knows the rules. Rule 7(d)(i) specifically tells you when risk of collision is deemed to exist.

Yes

I'm not sure why people keep posting snippets from other random sites (and/or their own interpretation) when official links to the COLREGS have been posted multiple times.

The COLREGS are very clear and risk of collision is clearly defined!
(and there are not multiple factors, but only one!)

https://assets.publishing.service.go...65/msn1781.pdf

Rule 7 - Risk of Collision

(d)
In determining if risk of collision exists the following considerations shall be among those taken into account:

(i)
such risk shall be deemed to exist if the compass bearing of an approaching vessel does not appreciably change;

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Is it uncommon?

Early in my sailing life I started listening carefully to VHF conversations between commercial mariners, and even now if I'm at the nav table and hear a conversation start up I habitually switch over to 06 or whatever to hear what they will say to each other.

I think the best thing for us to try to fit in with that and do it the way they do -- the way they treat each other, how they go about it. Pros talking to each other are with exceptionally rare deviations polite and collegial to each other, always willing to help each other out, always happy to maneuver if someone else needs it. The only interest they have is the common interest of making every crossing as totally risk-free, drama-free, as predictable, as possible. Never any hint of anyone asserting any kind of "rights", or "challenging" anyone -- it's not in their vocabulary, and shouldn't be in ours.

Note also that they don't waste each other's time -- they don't ask questions which are answered by the Rules, they don't make unecessary calls. Also something we should do, and knowing the Rules cold is the essential basis for this.

So for God's sake don't ever call a ship and ask him, in an outraged tone, why the hell he doesn't give way. This is a totally inappropriate question. Never ever do that -- that is total WAFI behavior. If you expect a ship to have given way and he doesn't, your question is totally different -- "Do you want to handle this, or shall I"? I don't really like the idea of asking him what he wants you to do -- you should have your own proposal ready -- "I'm going to alter to starboard to pass behind, you hold your course and speed, OK?" Or -- "Do you mind [even if he is obligated to anyway] altering to port to give me a little more room? Is it OK if I hold my course and speed?" If he has a different idea, he'll tell you.

Lol Dockhead, I see you are in awe of the big guys.[emoji6]

In different parts of the world you are dealing with a far weaker level of manning standards, english language restrictions and traffic density where multilateral conditions exist.

I normally anticipate and alleviate , but in some cases like approaches to Singapore, before the traffic schemes, you are caught in a melee of converging courses.

Then you need to force that rogue ship into following the Rules by using a commanding tone to guide that young 2nd mate to his senses.

Rare but sometimes necessay.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Lol Dockhead, I see you are in awe of the big guys.[emoji6]

In different parts of the world you are dealing with a far weaker level of manning standards, english language restrictions and traffic density where multilateral conditions exist.

I normally anticipate and alleviate , but in some cases like approaches to Singapore, before the traffic schemes, you are caught in a melee of converging courses.

Then you need to force that rogue ship into following the Rules by using a commanding tone to guide that young 2nd mate to his senses.

Rare but sometimes necessay.

Granted different parts of the world may be different.

Where I sail -- the busiest seaways in the world -- English Channel, Dover Straits, North Sea, German Bight -- the level of professionalism is high.

I would never dream of using a "commanding tone". Just agree on what to do, whatever it is, so that there is no misunderstanding. It's not a hard task. It doesn't matter at all who maneuvers, as long as there is no misunderstanding about who exactly that is.


I don't give a flip if the give way vessel doesn't want to give way. Why should I? As long as I know that he will be holding course and speed, I am very happy to take matters into my own hands.

[Shrew]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

In different parts of the world you are dealing with a far weaker level of manning standards, english language restrictions and traffic density where multilateral conditions exist.

I normally anticipate and alleviate , but in some cases like approaches to Singapore, before the traffic schemes, you are caught in a melee of converging courses.

Then you need to force that rogue ship into following the Rules by using a commanding tone to guide that young 2nd mate to his senses.

Rare but sometimes necessay.

So the commercial vessel is travelling at 9kts, you are 0.5 miles from collision, and you are using a commanding tone.

What are the commercial vessels options to avoid collision in that scenario?

(That is literally the situation the OP has presented us with).

[dannc]

Excuse my reordering of your comments.

Originally Posted by jmh2002

Too many cruisers here who 'think they know better'.

Frightening.

Yes, yes it is.

Worse is that they think they know, but do not know, are told the don't know, but continue to think they do know.

Originally Posted by jmh2002

...
I think I'll try to refrain from posting further since it appears that there are way too many cruisers here who just prefer to make up their own rules instead of following the internationally recognised COLREGS that have been in place for decades.

Do not stop posting. It is helpful.

I always learn from the COLREGS discussions. Remember, there are people reading, but not posting, who get value from these discussions.

As always, I am grateful for the posts from people who know what they are talking about, professional or otherwise. It takes time to answer, and is certainly frustrating having to deal with The Ones Who Think They Know But Do Not Know. Hopefully, most of the readers can separate the wheat from the chaff.

Thanks,
Dan

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Open water, not open ocean. The crossing took place 5 miles to the NE of Tiritiri Matangi. We were still 5+ miles outside the Auckland Harbour limits. You can see our course adjustment if you zoom in.



I say again, I was not challenging the ship, nor trying to assert my imaginary right of way.

For those saying I should have altered course earlier, what about the earlier ships? Oh yeah, earlier than them. If so, I would have ended up at Kawau, the larger island to the north, and they, having manoeuvred correctly, would have seen me altering course right at them.

Attachment 232258

These weren’t ferries, nor were they in a shipping lane, nor were they moving at top speed. All three ships went on to anchor to wait for space at the port.

There are those saying WAY TOO CLOSE. I called on VHF, and altered course, when I judged it to be appropriate in the circumstances. There was no danger at any point of us hitting the ship or of them running us over.

The ship obviously thought so too, as they didn’t do anything but continue on their way.

Took a while to drag out, but at last an image.. Cheers..
JMH2002.. Feel free to think what you like..
Will come back to this when I get my laptop back and reload my charts.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by boatman61

JMH2002.. Feel free to think what you like..

Sorry Phil, but it's not my thinking, only a reply to your post of interpretations of rules that don't even apply in this case, ie: Rule 15 - Crossing Situation, When two power-driven vessels are crossing...

When in the first instance this situation is simply Rule 18 - Responsibilities Between Vessels

(a) A power-driven vessel underway shall keep out of the way of:

(iv) a sailing vessel

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Shrew

So the commercial vessel is travelling at 9kts, you are 0.5 miles from collision, and you are using a commanding tone.

What are the commercial vessels options to avoid collision in that scenario?

(That is literally the situation the OP has presented us with).

You are confusing a specific situation with a general discussion.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Granted different parts of the world may be different.

Where I sail -- the busiest seaways in the world -- English Channel, Dover Straits, North Sea, German Bight -- the level of professionalism is high.

I would never dream of using a "commanding tone". Just agree on what to do, whatever it is, so that there is no misunderstanding. It's not a hard task. It doesn't matter at all who maneuvers, as long as there is no misunderstanding about who exactly that is.


I don't give a flip if the give way vessel doesn't want to give way. Why should I? As long as I know that he will be holding course and speed, I am very happy to take matters into my own hands.

Yes, European waters are a delight to sail in even when crowded.

The scenario when I am talking about using the commanding tone is reserved for when a ship is navigating eratically, instead of matching speeds with other ships and merging into organized lines ....

Unfortunately common when a ship is late for a pilot pickup, starts swerving thru traffic, causing other veseles to deviate from their course to stay clear....which has a knock on effect.

That call usually has the effect of Traffic Management giving them a warning call in same comanding tone and they settle down.
Very different from Europe.[emoji57]