Sailing vessel and RORO ship on collision courses - what do you think of the outcome?

[Pelagic]

Good one mate[emoji1303]

Originally Posted by boatman61

But I assume they can see me..
So.. What's the problem.. [emoji3]

Why spend money on what is not bread, and your labor on what does not satisfy? Listen, listen to me, and eat what is good, and your soul will delight in the richest of fare.
Isaiah..

[barnakiel]

Roro wins. Sailor sinks.


Unless the sailor is awake and dodges.

[TrentePieds]

Quote: "If the vessel comes into sight rule 12 to 18 apply act accordingly.
If not listen. If it’s signal changes to 2 prolonged it has stopped.
You can proceed slowly sounding your regular signal under way making way.
He will do the same.
Continue stop and go until sighted or you can no longer hear."

How utterly old-fashioned! I like it :-0)!

TP

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by boatman61

As for foggy, moonless nights.. done quite a few of those on boats from 21ft to 31ft across the English Channel on 'booze cruises' from Poole to Cherbourg over the years...

Originally Posted by boatman61

I have never claimed I was stupid enough to make crossings on foggy moonless nights..
:

You haven’t?

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Neither of those pink dots are relevant to my crossing with the RORO. The top pink dot is 3 miles south of the crossing location. The lower pink dot is irrelevant as the RORO proceeded, just as the two previous ships did, on to anchorage along the shores of Motutapu and Rangitoto, the two large islands at the bottom of your chart.

Attachment 232796

This density chart from Marinetraffic ( below) shows that ships coming from the north do indeed alter to starboard in that area.... possibly not a readily apparent alteration from a small boat. ( If coming up from the south around the top of the Coramandel it would be almost straight in but that does not appear to be the case)


Looking at your iSailor chartlet back on page 16 I take it you were steering about 270º true so a very simple crossing situation.

Was there any outbound traffic that would have made him less than keen to alter to port?

PS the dots on my previous chartlet were in quite the wrong place

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

This density chart from Marinetraffic ( below) shows that ships coming from the north do indeed alter to starboard in that area.... possibly not a readily apparent alteration from a small boat. ( If coming up from the south around the top of the Coramandel it would be almost straight in but that does not appear to be the case)


Looking at your iSailor chartlet back on page 16 I take it you were steering about 270º true so a very simple crossing situation.

Was there any outbound traffic that would have made him less than keen to alter to port?

PS the dots on my previous chartlet were in quite the wrong place

No outbound traffic that afternoon. Lots of ships at anchor waiting for space to open up at our overwhelmed and understaffed port (they had introduced an automated crane system mid last year and fired a number of senior crane operators, then found out the automated system is slow as molasses and needs experienced operators to train it. Oops!!). All three ships that afternoon went straight to anchorage.

Pilot boats are visible in AIS. None that afternoon.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I remember a thread asking which was better, AIS or Radar?

So many extolled the virtues of AIS and some even opined that Radar was now obsolete.

I come from a time of crossing oceans without GPS so I understand Boaties confidence in that you make do with what you have.

But , I liken the lack of Radar at night, to swimming underwater without a mask.

Nobody is saying you must have Radar or AIS, but Radar is by far the most useful tool next to depth sounder and compass if they navigate in 3rd world countries at night

I think it depends on where you sail.

In Asia a very large percentage of vessels wont have ais, that said many wont appear on radar easily either.

In the Pacific I like radar more for incoming squalls than seeing other vessels anything that's out there has ais, unless they're a chinese fishing vessel that has it turned off.

I like radar, but for me it's a bonus, not a must. Many international cruisers have radar, not sure how many actually use it or are good at doing so.

[daletournier]

I should add a radar is so cheap now when combined with open cpn, why wouldnt you?

I replaced my old Raytheon in Capetown for approx $1,800 aud!!, the new B&G 3g made me want to use it and they draw little power.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

You haven’t?

Where do I say I was stupid.. also being caught out mid channel is different to starting out in fog...
Moonless nights happen 5 times every month and make no difference to sailing plans any more than cloud cover with a full moon..
Fog is largely unpredictable and can be dealt with today the same way as I dealt with it in the 80's...
Just because you don't feel safe without radar don't lay your insecurities on me..

[nolakennedys]

Law of "mass tonnage". I would have altered course. Not saying you are wrong by any means, but agreed with most of the posters that they will generally not alter course for pleasure craft.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by daletournier

I should add a radar is so cheap now when combined with open cpn, why wouldnt you?

I replaced my old Raytheon in Capetown for approx $1,800 aud!!, the new B&G 3g made me want to use it and they draw little power.

You do realize that's half of what I paid for the Hurley 22 I sailed from the UK down to Portugal one December and around the same price I paid for my Corribee 21 that I made the same trip on a couple of years later.
What you deep pocket folks don't seem to realise is you come across as calling us shallow pocket folk dangerous and have no right to be on the water..
Well... you can swivel on that straight away.. you sound like my neighbor who reckons I should not ride my Virago because I wear jeans and not custom leathers like him.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by boatman61

You do realize that's half of what I paid for the Hurley 22 I sailed from the UK down to Portugal one December and around the same price I paid for my Corribee 21 that I made the same trip on a couple of years later.
What you deep pocket folks don't seem to realise is you come across as calling us shallow pocket folk dangerous and have no right to be on the water..
Well... you can swivel on that straight away.. you sound like my neighbor who reckons I should not ride my Virago because I wear jeans and not custom leathers like him.

"You deep pocket folks," what a crock! Your excuses for not using radar seem to be steadily evolving. A few years ago in a similar thread, you stated that when you were delivering a boat with the owner on board, when you came on watch during a dark night he had the radar on but you turned it off because you didn't like radar, so you were on watch on a boat that was already equipped with a working radar and you STILL refused to use it. I remember it because I thought it was ridiculous back then, but now you pretending it's all about the money seems even more absurd. As I stated a few pages back, I just gave away a working radar to the boatyard tech who is installing my new one. I saw him yesterday and he said he's got about 20 of them laying around and surprisingly, the most valuable parts to him, even though many of them were working when removed from boats, are the fiberglass enclosures because sometimes they get cracked and it's impossible to order a replacement. So, as long as you've been active in the marine industry, you MUST have a few friends who work at boatyards, and with your gift of gab, if you asked around, I'm sure for the price of a few drinks at a pub or a favor or two, you could easily procure a used radar that had been removed from a boat during a refit and install it yourself. It wouldn't be the latest and greatest but it would be perfectly serviceable. I've installed 2 radars myself and it's not difficult if you know how to splice wires. If you wanted one, you'd have one.

I don't think every boat needs to have a radar. For example that are lots of boats that are basically used as daysailors in fair weather, or are just used for racing during the day, and then there are the fleets of charter boats in locations where there is no fog and night sailing isn't allowed. But for anyone who plans to go offshore or to sail overnight or in bad weather conditions in reduced visibility, it seems to me that every responsible skipper doing that would want to do everything in his power to be able to see and avoid colliding with other boats rather than expecting everyone else to avoid him. Obtaining a radar is well within your reach of you wanted one.

You keep saying you follow the rules but in reduced visibility the one rule you re depending most on is the part where the stand on vessel is required to maneuver to avoid the give way vessel when the give way vessel doesn't give way. You don't know where he is so you can't maneuver to avoid him even if you're the give way vessel. Technically you're still within the rules to be doing that but everybody can't depend on everyone else to get out of their way. Why do you think you're so special? Yes, using sound signals and listening is still in the rules, but the problem that anyone knows about who's been out in thick fog is that it's pretty tough to tell direction in thick fog even if both you and the other vessel can hear each other over other noises such as the engines. And since there's usually very little wind in thick fog, both vessels are apt to be operating under power, not sailing. Back 100+ years ago that's how they did it and it may seem romantic and in keeping with your swashbuckling image you like to keep up to emulate those old salts from days of yore, but they didn't have engine noise to deal with back then, and they also used to run into each other a lot more than we do today and the primary reason is that now we have a device that allows us to "see" in the fog or on the darkest night. I've got a book beside me that's all about the days of steamships that traveled "downeast" from Boston and in Penobscot Bay where I keep my boat. I was surprised by how many of them eventually came to grief on ledges that would be visible via radar, or they collided with each other and sank with great loss of life despite the fact that there were almost always reports that passengers or crew heard the other vessels whistle before the collision. These were vessels that were skippered and crewed with full time sailors countless times over the same route and using the best collision avoidance equipment available to them which as their loud steam whistle and ships bell. Relying on sound signals didn't work very well for them and it wouldn't work very well for you either if everyone else wasn't using their radar to avoid you.

Instead of making up these silly excuses why you don't use radar, why don't you just come out and say you just don't want to bother with it no matter how much it helps make you and all the boats nearby less likely to run into each other? IMHO it's a pretty irresponsible attitude but at least that would be honest.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

"You deep pocket folks," what a crock! Your excuses for not using radar seem to be steadily evolving. A few years ago in a similar thread, you stated that when you were delivering a boat with the owner on board, when you came on watch during a dark night he had the radar on but you turned it off because you didn't like radar, so you were on watch on a boat that was already equipped with a working radar and you STILL refused to use it. I remember it because I thought it was ridiculous back then, but now you pretending it's all about the money seems even more absurd. As I stated a few pages back, I just gave away a working radar to the boatyard tech who is installing my new one. I saw him yesterday and he said he's got about 20 of them laying around and surprisingly, the most valuable parts to him, even though many of them were working when removed from boats, are the fiberglass enclosures because sometimes they get cracked and it's impossible to order a replacement. So, as long as you've been active in the marine industry, you MUST have a few friends who work at boatyards, and with your gift of gab, if you asked around, I'm sure for the price of a few drinks at a pub or a favor or two, you could easily procure a used radar that had been removed from a boat during a refit and install it yourself. It wouldn't be the latest and greatest but it would be perfectly serviceable. I've installed 2 radars myself and it's not difficult if you know how to splice wires. If you wanted one, you'd have one.

I don't think every boat needs to have a radar. For example that are lots of boats that are basically used as daysailors in fair weather, or are just used for racing during the day, and then there are the fleets of charter boats in locations where there is no fog and night sailing isn't allowed. But for anyone who plans to go offshore or to sail overnight or in bad weather conditions in reduced visibility, it seems to me that every responsible skipper doing that would want to do everything in his power to be able to see and avoid colliding with other boats rather than expecting everyone else to avoid him. Obtaining a radar is well within your reach of you wanted one.

You keep saying you follow the rules but in reduced visibility the one rule you re depending most on is the part where the stand on vessel is required to maneuver to avoid the give way vessel when the give way vessel doesn't give way. You don't know where he is so you can't maneuver to avoid him even if you're the give way vessel. Technically you're still within the rules to be doing that but everybody can't depend on everyone else to get out of their way. Why do you think you're so special? Yes, using sound signals and listening is still in the rules, but the problem that anyone knows about who's been out in thick fog is that it's pretty tough to tell direction in thick fog even if both you and the other vessel can hear each other over other noises such as the engines. And since there's usually very little wind in thick fog, both vessels are apt to be operating under power, not sailing. Back 100+ years ago that's how they did it and it may seem romantic and in keeping with your swashbuckling image you like to keep up to emulate those old salts from days of yore, but they didn't have engine noise to deal with back then, and they also used to run into each other a lot more than we do today and the primary reason is that now we have a device that allows us to "see" in the fog or on the darkest night. I've got a book beside me that's all about the days of steamships that traveled "downeast" from Boston and in Penobscot Bay where I keep my boat. I was surprised by how many of them eventually came to grief on ledges that would be visible via radar, or they collided with each other and sank with great loss of life despite the fact that there were almost always reports that passengers or crew heard the other vessels whistle before the collision. These were vessels that were skippered and crewed with full time sailors countless times over the same route and using the best collision avoidance equipment available to them which as their loud steam whistle and ships bell. Relying on sound signals didn't work very well for them and it wouldn't work very well for you either if everyone else wasn't using their radar to avoid you.

Instead of making up these silly excuses why you don't use radar, why don't you just come out and say you just don't want to bother with it no matter how much it helps make you and all the boats nearby less likely to run into each other? IMHO it's a pretty irresponsible attitude but at least that would be honest.

No excuses at all.. I also put the cover on the cockpit CP at night because the glare spoils my night vision.. regardless of its so called 'night setting' which still has an effect on night vision.
As for that boats radar, he had it set on split screen and I changed it to full screen for the CP then put the cover on.
Ships still collide with each other, cruise ships hit islands and navy vessels run down boats, hit each other or end up sitting on rocks..
Radar does not compensate for poor seamanship.
Radar is a tool.. you may choose a jigsaw where I may prefer a fret saw.. simple as.
As for everyone else.. don't make me laugh..
You carry on on your high road pal and I will keep putting miles under my keels.. and don't fret, you live to far N to ever have to worry about our wakes crossing..

PS; on My boats it is all about the money... OPB's it's about choice and if it bothers them there's Snore, BVImatelot and others to choose from.

[Pelagic]

I understand Boatie's focus on maintaining night vision, which I agree should be a high priority.

So with Radar it is hard to do unless you manage it with a seperate lookout forward of any cockpit lights.

Offshore I love a completely darkened ship that allows my eyes to be at their best when starlight vision becomes magical.

But like any Aid, once you get used to it, hard to give it up

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by boatman61

You do realize that's half of what I paid for the Hurley 22 I sailed from the UK down to Portugal one December and around the same price I paid for my Corribee 21 that I made the same trip on a couple of years later.
What you deep pocket folks don't seem to realise is you come across as calling us shallow pocket folk dangerous and have no right to be on the water..
Well... you can swivel on that straight away.. you sound like my neighbor who reckons I should not ride my Virago because I wear jeans and not custom leathers like him. [emoji3]

Hey, I never called you or anyone else anything... chill mate. This "deep pocket " started with sweet F all.

Btw ,I started on a Wharram.