Sailing vessel and RORO ship on collision courses - what do you think of the outcome?

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by sailingabe41ds

So...I am now a WAFI because I stay out these tankers way knowing that they do not respond to calls and that they almost NEVER change their course for small vessels. We have the same situation as donradcliffe mentioned.
Welcome to my world....

Abe

I think you (and others) need to be cognizant of the fact that the Colregs regulate traffic at sea the same as traffic laws regulate driving on land.

Very few people think that it is desirable to make up your own rules for driving down the road. The reason we don't ahve more accidents on the road is that drivers generally obey traffic laws.

Why do some boaters think it so different at sea? The Colregs regulate sea traffic. If we all obey them, then there will be few accidents. I simply do not believe that SF Bay is totally different htan the rest of the world.

Perhaps the problem is that you do not know the Colregs and therefore are not aware that in narrow shipping lanes (such as those found extensively in SF BAy) that the Colregs give various types of ship different priorities from those they have at sea (f.ex. "Shall not impede")

This is what you should understand:


As Pelagic mentioned above, the greatest concern for a large vessel is for a small yacht to do something unexpected, unplanned, and unorthodox in relation to the COLREGS

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Uricanejack

I usually agree with most of what you post. Your knowledge of the regulations is very good.

I am concerned about the advice you are giving here with reference to distance.

In my opinion the OP did just fine complying with the regulations.
I don’t have a concern about him waiting until 0.5 miles to take action.

The distance is his choice based on his vessels manoeuvrability which is justifiable and reasonably safe.
Not to early, not to late, reasonable for his vessel.

Strictly speaking to comply with the rule for action by a stand on vessel.

Prior to taking action.
The stand on vessel is required to signal its doubt about the intentions of the give way vessel. The prescribed signal 5 short blasts.

Or in this case the OP chose a call on the radio expressing his doubt.

After this the OP took action.

In general I would advise a stand on vessel to either stop or turn away from a give way vessel.
There is significant risk a give way vessel may alter towards you if you alter to pass astern,

There may be rare circumstances which do not permit a stand on vessel to turn away, in which case a significant reduction of speed or stopping would be much less risk than altering to pass astern.

In this case the OP spoke to the give way vessel and appears to have received confirmation it would not alter. Mitigating some of the risk of it altering to words him.
Still putting trust in a vessel which has proven not to be very trust worthy.

My concern with your advice to alter at 3 or 4 miles or before to to pass astern. There is a very distinct possibility the give way vessel OOW will. Wake up, put his book down, turn the ball game off, or hear the dog bark.
And alter course as required, just for some unknown reason a bit later than I might regard as prudent.

Depending on type and sise of commercial vessel 2 to 4 miles might be considered as a perfectly reasonable distance for an alteration of course by some OOW. Depending upon the circumstances.

By comparison, an OOW on a stand on VLCC might reasonably consider taking action by its manoeuvre alone after having sounded 5 short at around 2 miles.
And by turning away.

If you are stand on getting concerned calling by radio at 3 or 4 miles is ok.
It’s to early to determine the other vessel is not acting as required. And acting by you maneuver alone.

At this range making a passing arrangement to pass astern, is ok if you want to.
But be aware you are agreeing to deviate from the rules. When you do so.

Altering course to pass astern without signalling you are in doubt could be very hazardous.

These are completely fair comments, which correct some oversimplifications in my post. Thanks.

The distances I gave (at the risk of oversimplifying everything) were only an example, and probably average distances for real open water and average speeds (18-20 knots for the ship). They might all be compressed somewhat in more crowded waters and/or lower speeds.

And so it's very true what UJ said that in the range of 2 to 4 or 5 miles, it is not always obvious when the obligation to stand on goes away. You have to be careful, watch closely, and make your maneuver very apparent so he can see what you're doing, and be ready to react in case he wakes up suddenly and manuevers himself.

As to passing astern -- I believe the RoRo in the OP was on his starboard, so the correct alteration to stb would have him pass astern.

It's much more difficult if the give-way vessel is on the other side, so that an undesirable turn to port would be required to pass astern. A turn to port should be avoided because if the other vessel alters to stb at the same time, a collision might result. I completely agree with UJ that if you do this, then you really do need to call to make sure there is no misunderstanding.

I think sailing vessels should avoid passing close ahead of faster moving ships. "Close ahead" is certainly anything much less than a mile, and even a mile might be tight depending on the difference in speed.

The only disagreement I have with UJ is about holding a collision course right up to 0.5 miles. In my opinion this is always wrong, unless the ship is in a channel and you know exactly where to turn to for sure stay out of his way. 5 cables is already "in extremis" -- not enough distance to correct in case your maneuver doesn't resolve the situation. Not enough time to sort anything out if he wakes up and maneuvers at the same time. It's just way too close. If you're under sail, what if there is a lull in the wind? What if you get a lee from the ship itself? What if the ship slightly varies its course? You should just never be that close to a ship in open water. The Rules say that "[a]ny action to avoid collision shall be taken in accordance with the Rules . . . and shall . . . be positive, made in ample time, and with due regard to the observance of good seamanship." Rule 8(a) Waiting until 5 cables, just a couple minutes before impact, when it's too late for the maneuver to be observed and considered, when a simultaneous maneuver might create an irrecoverable situation, just doesn't cut it. In fact, 5 cables isn't even really a safe CPA, even if set up miles ahead, much less it is a safe decision point (if you only maneuver at 5 cables, what's your CPA? I shudder to think. The Rules say: Action taken to avoid collision with another vessel shall be such as to result in passing at a safe distance). Unless perhaps passing behind and without a huge difference in speed. You should in most cases (in open water; it's different when there are channels involved) not ever get within a mile of a ship -- you should maneuver at least a a couple of miles off to pass at least a mile from him -- as a general rule. If there are many vessels involved (in really crowded waters like English Channel, North Sea, German Bight -- where I sail) this might not always be achievable, but in uncrowded, open water, there is just no reason to get closer.

[Snore]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

....

The only disagreement I have with UJ is about holding a collision course right up to 0.5 miles. .

Thank you for all your posts on this thread. IMHO, the OP was not wrong- he was just not right.

At 5 NM spacing and 0.0CPA, the other vessel was a concern. The sailboat was clearly stand on. At that time the watch keeper should have noted the speed, heading and CPA. The decision would also need to be made, "Do I want to stand on, or turn 10 degrees to starboard?" The OP took option #1, he had the right to. Me? If the vessel was in bound from a passage (could see on his AIS), I would have turned to starboard 10 degrees.

At 4NM spacing (about 6-7 min later) the speed, heading and CPA should have been compared to the first reading. IF there was no change there should have been a radio call. After completing the hailings, I would have stated we are under sail and making 9kts. Most sailing vessels travel slower, the OOW may have ignored the AIS speed! Also a large vessel making 9kts, needs time to ponder a course change, adjust the rudder and for the vessel to react. Also, since this sailing vessel was using a downwind fore sail, they could have wrapped some of it up to slow the boat. Slowing their speed, would have allowed more space.

At 2.5-3NM spacing, (20 min after initial contact) if the other vessels actions did not allow for 0.5NM (ideally 1NM) spacing a second radio call would have been made, advising of my course change.

I firmly believe the OOW on the RORO did not factor in the speed the sailboat was making.

In the end it is not about being right or wrong, it is about good seamanship. IMHO the OP did not operate in a seaman-like manner.

[fgd3]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Note that the correct action for the ship was either to alter course to port to go behind us, or to slow down to allow us to pass ahead, or to speed up and go ahead. I guess the ship decided on option three and we sped up as the breeze increased.

Sounds to me like you failed in your duty as stand on vessel to maintain course and speed. Apparently the ship altered speed to pass ahead of you but your speed increase negated their adjustment.

[Manateeman]

Bill K deserves a standing ovation. Excellent advice. Sail boat and RO RO.
Are you kidding me? Stand on vessel ? What?
Once upon a time it was yachting. Good manners mattered. Is it so hard to adjust your course or speed to make it a perfectly safe crossing?
Honestly...I just cannot believe some of the posts I read here as a professional Mariner and a sailor.
And all of this while in radio communications and AIS. WOW.
Disturbing.
Captain Mark and his manatee crew “feverishly sewing Kevlar jackets” for use near Stand On Sailors.

[boatman61]

This is by all accounts a RoRo ferry.. I would give way personally the same way I cede right of way to the Isle of Wight RoRo, the fast ferries between Spain and N Africa in the Strait of Gibraltar or anywhere else.. Don't play with ferries.
As I stated earlier, it costs nothing to furl in some jib to lose a couple of knots or to give a quick Hail on the VHF to state your intention to pass his stern which also would have been no hardship as it would not be taking you into the wind.. all of which could have been done 5, 4 or even 3 miles distant.. instead you chose to play chicken and even speeded up by your own admission.. a light plastic fantastic is way more maneuverable and way easier to stop than a heavy ferry.
Also those saying 0.5 is too close should remember.. that's near a whole kilometere and I have had ships pass closer than that many times.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

Certainly this, a large commercial vessel is unlikely to be very interested in a drastic course alteration at that point (not withstanding who might be the standon vessel).

If the AIS already indicated a CPA of 0.0nm at 5nm distance then use that time and distance to get in touch with the ship in advance.

Having said that, the Auckland Harbour Master may be interested to hear about this vessel's actions, if you were looking to take it further.

Law of Tonnage works regardless of what the colregs state.

Once you are aware of an issue, you have a responsibility to take action. At 5miles, you knew there was a potential issue. Maybe the ship didn't see you, maybe he expected like most sailboats out for a day sail, you would tack away long before meeting and if he took action, it would put him in conflict with other boats in the area.

The OP knew there was an issue and chose to try and claim "right-of-way" (even though he used the technically correct "stand on" terminology) until it was obvious he was going to lose that bet.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

In fact the COLREGS expressly permit any vessel, ..., to also take action to avoid a collision.

But the blind faith to made up nonsense suggested sometimes on this forum in relation to collision avoidance should in no way replace correct education and knowledge, even for a cruising sailor.

The OP had the opportunity to take action early as he admits he was aware of the situation 5miles out.

The OP went on blind faith in the rules until it created a real potential for issues. (personally don't like to get within 100m of a ships stern as the wakes can be pretty wild).

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by chrisr

imho you did everything right except i would have started talking on the vhf much earlier. if you do not get a clear agreement that he is give way vessel and what he is going to do to keep clear, play to the gallery ie there are a lot of people listening to ch16 - and it's usually being recorded. state the ship name clearly and repeatedly, and how and why he is failing to adhere to colregs.

A great way to make your family rich when they sue over your death...not so good for actually staying alive when you could have simply angled off by 10 degrees as soon as you were aware of the situation.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by carstenb

By not obeying the Colregs, you are throwing an unwanted and errant set of actions into the equation of avoiding a collision - causing only confusion and living up to the title of WAFI.

Taking early and clear action to negate the crossing is well within the colregs.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Manateeman

Bill K deserves a standing ovation. Excellent advice. Sail boat and RO RO.
Are you kidding me? Stand on vessel ? What?
Once upon a time it was yachting. Good manners mattered. Is it so hard to adjust your course or speed to make it a perfectly safe crossing?
Honestly...I just cannot believe some of the posts I read here as a professional Mariner and a sailor.
And all of this while in radio communications and AIS. WOW.
Disturbing.
Captain Mark and his manatee crew “feverishly sewing Kevlar jackets” for use near Stand On Sailors.

I agree that Bill K's advice to call early and clarify Intentions ....
....but not the tone of the chastisement about standing on, until it was apparent the give way vessel was not going to

What amazes me is the beliief that it is better to ignore the Rules of the Road as a better/safer philosophy.

I can just imagine the craziness if every car or truck driver at every intersection chose to apply their own rules on right of way based on an ad hoc philosophy of size matters that contravene ratified rules.

Every bus and truck blowing thru red lights and stop signs

Every compact frozen at 4 way stop signs, waiting for permission[emoji16]

The OP did not have a collision, he avoided one and has the right to be pissed off at the RoRo

[Shrew]

I hate to say it, but this reads a little bit like a temper tantrum. "But I was right and he was wrong!!!!

1) You were playing.....he was working

2) It is insignificant for you to change course and speed, while it is very significant for him to change course and speed.

3) You contacted him very late

4) What you consider 'close' and what he considers 'close' are two different things. You are adamant that you are on a collision course. If he didn't believe so, I tend to believe the guy who calculates intersecting courses for a living. Plus he most likely has navigation software which confirms his suspicions.

To me, this is like walking out onto a Freeway/highway, then getting upset because the cars travelling at 75 MPH should know that the pedestrian has the right of way and they should be stopping for YOU.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

What amazes me is the beliief that it is better to ignore the Rules of the Road as a better/safer philosophy.

Early action so as to negate a crossing situation is will within the rules.

To use a highway comparison. If you are on a freeway in the right lane approaching an on ramp...if you see truck on the ramp, you are required to hold speed per the law and the merging vehicle must find a gap (very similar to stand on situation). But if traffic is light, there is absolutely nothing wrong with sliding over a lane to the left, so as to create a gap negating the whole issue of merging.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by BillKny

What I have always explained to my students is that before there is a "risk of collision" there is no stand-on boat, and you can do whatever needs to be done to prevent a risky situation from developing with out violating your responsibilities as the "stand-on" vessel.

I've not heard that point made that way before, but it makes perfect sense. Thanks.

However, the OP's story is further proof of my theory that NO powerboat will willingly cross a sailboat's stern if they can help it.

[Manateeman]

Forgot to thank Dockhead for excellent post.
OK. Let’s say it did result in a collision. Let me tell you about how similar cases in the past ended because my father was an attorney in admiralty and I watched or listened to numerous cases.
The attorneys for the sail boat will paint the ship master as the devil himself. Old.
Grizzly. Mean dog. Captain Bligh. Drunk...and the sailor as a yachtsman, family guy and victim. Then experts from both sides will put the jury to sleep explaining the rules complete with mind numbing charts and computations.
Then the ship captain will explain how he was fighting a fire or doing CPR on the cook. He will look professional...another nice guy. Lastly, the USCG will send in the man or woman in white. Crisp, exact...the perfect authority the jury longs for after all the contradictory testimony. The jurors will sit up as he explains why mr. sailor was wrong. The judge instructions reinforce the rule of laws.
Sometimes...the jury might feel really bad for the sailor and deadlock. Before they return, the insurance company might offer some settlement.
Most juries feel bad for mr sailor but dismiss the lawsuit against the ship.
If the attorneys for the ship can produce evidence the sailor has ever been seen or documented trying to force the right of way...the jury will award legal costs to the defendant. Again, every keystroke online can be found. Ratting somebody out? Don’t throw rocks in a glass house. And please stay clear of sleeping sperm whales and resting manatees.
Happy trails to you.
Captain Mark and his “why do they call a Sirenia dugong...sounds awful “ manatee crew.