Sidelight Placement under power >20Meters

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Student_Driver

I was re-reading the Nav Rules while sailing recently on a >20M sailboat. We were doing a great deal of motoring, which as I understand, means that we would be classified as a vessel under power. Not a sailboat.

Given this, would the rules for sidelight placement “not forward of the masthead light” apply?

If so, many boat manufacturers and owners would be in violation. This seems unlikely. Consequently, I guess that there must be some exceptions but I could not find them.

Thots?

From the OP.

The Annex actually says

On a power-driven vessel of 20 metres or more in length the sidelights shall not be placed in front of the forward masthead lights. They shall be placed at or near the side of the vessel.

and at the very beginning of Annex 1 we have

'ANNEX I
Positioning and technical details of lights and shapes
1. Definition
The term “height above the hull” means height above the uppermost continuous deck. This height shall
be measured from the position vertically beneath the location of the light.
2. Vertical positioning and spacing of lights
(a) On a power-driven vessel of 20 metres or more in length the masthead lights shall be placed
as follows:
(i) the forward masthead light, or if only one masthead light is carried, then that light,

So it is right there in the annex - if only one masthead light is carried it is just a light.

Jim is correct.

[El Pinguino]

A nice photo of Asgard II here showing her sidelights to be well forward of the foremast and her sole masthead light. Built in survey and not just by some backwoods skandi boatbuilder she was 27 metres long.

https://www.qsl.net/ei5fk/images/asgard1.jpg

[goboatingnow]

(b) On a power-driven vessel of 20 m or more in length the sidelights shall not be
placed in front of the forward masthead lights. They shall be placed at or near the side
of the vessel.

I think its clear that a 70 foot yachts must have its sidelights abaft of the mast head light

[StuM]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Quite so.
If there is no second masthead light the single masthead light can not be 'forward', it is simply the 'masthead light'.

The single 'masthead light ' could just as well be called 'aft' as 'forward'.

That's the way I read it too.


Sections 3(a)-(c) al refer to forward and/or aft masthead lights so clearly relate to vessels with more than one masthead light.


Only Section 3(d) relates to a vessel with a single masthead light.


3. Horizontal positioning and spacing of lights
(a) When two masthead lights are prescribed for a power-driven vessel, the horizontal distance between them shall not be less than one-half of the length of the vessel but need not be more than 100 metres. The forward light shall be placed not more than one-quarter of the length of the vessel from the stem.
(b) On a power-driven vessel of 20 metres or more in length the sidelights shall not be placed in front of the forward masthead lights. They shall be placed at or near the side of the vessel.
(c) When the lights prescribed in Rule 27(b)(i) or Rule 28 are placed vertically between the forward masthead light(s) and the after masthead light(s) these all-round lights shall be placed at a horizontal distance of not less than 2 metres from the fore and aft centreline of the vessels in the athwartship direction.
(d) When only one masthead light is prescribed for a power-driven vessel, this light shall be exhibited forward of amidships; except that a vessel of less than 20 metres in length need not exhibit this light forward of amidships but shall exhibit it as far forward as is practicable.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I think its clear that a 70 foot yachts must have its sidelights abaft of the mast head light

33 posts in it seems that it isn't remotely clear and the people who ordered, built, surveyed, and put Asgard II into class reckon that the sidelights do not have to be abaft a single masthead light.

Even where two masthead lights are involved the three larger sailing ships I have checked out - Libertad, Cuauhtemoc, and Esmeralda - all have the sidelights in line with the foremast - at the break of the foc's'le in the case of the latter two.

The Annex actually says 'the sidelights shall not be placed in front of the forward masthead lights.' - nothing there about 'abaft'.

[goboatingnow]

well a single masthead light must be positioned" forward", that's clearly means forward of the midships positions

The sidelights must not be positioned ahead of that light

[goboatingnow]

The Annex actually says 'the sidelights shall not be placed in front of the forward masthead lights.' - nothing there about 'abaft'.

its under horizontal separation. one can position the sidelights immediately opposite or behind but not in front of the mast head light

every ship I know does this

[El Pinguino]

Meanwhile, using Asgard as our example - the photo in my previous post

'
2.3 Details of Statutory Certification issued by the Department of Transport:
Irish Load Line Certificate. Minimum Safe Manning Document.
Appendix 10.2 contains a copy of the above documentation.
2.4 Classification Details:
Classification Society: Lloyd’s Register of Shipping (LR) Classification Notation: 100A1 Yacht LMC
Appendix 10.3 contains a copy of the current Classification Certificate. The ship was built to Lloyd’s Register Class and maintained in Class since building.'

I suspect Lloyds and the Irish Department of Transport along with her owners , the Irish Minister of defence, would know what they were doing.

That is from the inquiry into her loss
https://www.mcib.ie/_fileupload/Docu...II_for_web.pdf

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Meanwhile, using Asgard as our example - the photo in my previous post

'
2.3 Details of Statutory Certification issued by the Department of Transport:
Irish Load Line Certificate. Minimum Safe Manning Document.
Appendix 10.2 contains a copy of the above documentation.
2.4 Classification Details:
Classification Society: Lloyd’s Register of Shipping (LR) Classification Notation: 100A1 Yacht LMC
Appendix 10.3 contains a copy of the current Classification Certificate. The ship was built to Lloyd’s Register Class and maintained in Class since building.'

I suspect Lloyds and the Irish Department of Transport along with her owners , the Irish Minister of defence, would know what they were doing.

That is from the inquiry into her loss
https://www.mcib.ie/_fileupload/Docu...II_for_web.pdf

knowing the MSO ( marine Survey Office ) as I do , the answer is NO, amd she is still sitting on the bottom of Belle Isle

[Student_Driver]

Just because people get paid to certify things, one should never impute accuracy, skill or honesty. No matter how arcane, esoteric or complex the certification process. Question is simple. Are the rules, as written, sufficiently clear for a competent mariner to understand? If so, what is the rule? IMHO, it seems that >20m while under power at night you must display a forward white light 6M above the hull covering 225 degrees forward, and sidelights which may be abeam or abaft abeam of such light. That is my question.

[Student_Driver]

I began the post by observing that my reading of the rule suggests that no one cares, or that I am wrong.

I am not invested either way but am curious. That’s all.

[Student_Driver]

In my professional career i have seen much bigger oversight. My guess is that the rule is unclear and no one cares.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Student_Driver

Just because people get paid to certify things, one should never impute accuracy, skill or honesty. No matter how arcane, esoteric or complex the certification process. Question is simple. Are the rules, as written, sufficiently clear for a competent mariner to understand? If so, what is the rule? IMHO, it seems that >20m while under power at night you must display a forward white light 6M above the hull covering 225 degrees forward, and sidelights which may be abeam or abaft abeam of such light. That is my question.

Question is simple. Are the rules, as written, sufficiently clear for a competent mariner to understand?

Speaking as a Competent Mariner the answer is 'Yes'.

They have been clear enough for the last 50 years that every classification society - LR,DNV,ABS -etc etc - have interpreted them as meaning that a ship with a single masthead light can have the side light frd of that single 'masthead light' .

This has also been the interpretation of the world's naval architects, shipbuilders, state appointed surveyors etc etc.

https://www.imo.org/en/About/Convent...es/COLREG.aspx

And also - positioning the side lights frd of the 'masthead' light is not limited to sailing yachts . It is also found in large motor yachts which it is safe to say have all been built 'in class' by competent people.

https://images.yachtworld.com/resize...=1486037045000

https://images.yachtworld.com/resize...=1579019336000

https://cdn.boatinternational.com/co...de-yacht.jpg/r[width]=1920/gcgqFZYkQ6qq82Kkjh9A_J'ade-yacht.jpg

https://www.jfa-yachts.com/wp-conten...t-jfa-01-1.jpg

[donradcliffe]

The rules are clear, but make no sense for a sailing vessel. Rather than argue, the builders just put the sidelights on the bow where they won't be obscured.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

The rules are clear, but make no sense for a sailing vessel. Rather than argue, the builders just put the sidelights on the bow where they won't be obscured.

The builders, classification societies, designers, etc, etc , most probably asked for clarification from IMO back in 1972 and have since that time acted upon that clarification.