Source for Canadian S-63 or S-57 Charts

[navman]

Looking for AFFORDABLE S-63 or S-57 charts for the entire west coast of Canada (ideally official sources). Looking at the Canadian Hydrographic Office site it seems they are priced for commercial ship licensing, not recreational yachtsman.

https://charts.gc.ca/charts-cartes/d...e-eng.html#enc

$1200.00 seems a bit absurd considering I can get commercial charts for most plotters for about 1/6th that price.

O-Charts makes these available for €20.00, but those only work in OpenCPN, and I have come to prefer qtVlm for a host of reasons, including routing I feel is on par or exceeding Expedition.

https://o-charts.org/shop/en/oesenc/42-capc.html

[navman]

I post this because I have for years relied on paper charts as my primary source of truth for navigation, and these charts are being retired now over the coming years. The recreational boater faces some interesting issues with regard to insurance, and liability by not carrying up to date official charts, and all the commercial providers have disclaimers like:

C-Map:

"Subject to the terms and conditions herein, C-MAP grants to You the non-transferable, personal, non-exclusive right to use the Data, Materials and Services only for Your benefit solely as an ancillary navigational aid (i.e., a supplement to official navigation information and traditional navigation techniques), and not as the sole or primary method of navigation."

Navionics:

NAVIONICS ELECTRONIC CHARTS, BASED ON OFFICIAL DATA AS WELL AS ON OTHER SOURCES, PROVIDE ASSISTANCE FOR NAVIGATION AND ARE DESIGNED TO FACILITATE THE USE OF OFFICIAL NAUTICAL CHARTS AND NOT TO REPLACE THEM. ONLY OFFICIAL NAUTICAL CHARTS AND NOTICES FOR NAVIGATORS CONTAIN ALL THE INFORMATION NECESSARY FOR SAFE NAVIGATION AND, AS ALWAYS, THE CAPTAIN IS RESPONSIBLE FOR PROPER USE OF SAME.

In every instance where I have sought out the legal disclaimers for charts used in non-commercial systems, all available chart options carry this type of language. This means the charts on your plotter, whether from Garmin, Navico, B&G, Raymarine, Furuno, or someone else do not qualify as "Official Charts" and therefore require the carriage of additional "Official Charts" when operating your vessel in US (or Canadian) waters to comply with their respective Federal Regulations.

So, for those transiting BC waters en route to Alaska, you're going to need some form of official charts, and if you want electronic versions, they will cost you dearly from what I can find (and I've spent hours looking for alternatives beyond O-Charts).

In the US, Title 15 CFR, Part 995 ensures that Distributors of NOAA Hydrographic Products are compliant, and the CHS enforces similar regulation on CHS ENC Distributors.

Yet NOAA ENC's are free, along with the required Coast Pilot and Light Lists), however in Canada these ENC charts are priced quite out of reach for many recreational boaters if purchased through authorized distributors, and SECTION 142 Canadian Navigable Waters Act carries similar carriage requirements.

So what's the solution?

[glenn.225]

Well I not sure there is much we can do. Could try to petition the Canadian government to release them for free, but I doubt that will do anything.
Myself like, almost everyone else uses some form of retail electronic charts. I do have 3 or 4 paper charts for Eastern Lake Ontario, but that is all.
Also, no chart is perfect. I never never follow them blindly, but they are a good guide.

[sailingharry]

Spent 3 months in the Canadian Atlantic maritimes this summer. 100% on purchased electronic charts.

Our chart plotter, a Furuno, allowed us to buy charts from C-Map. The entire Eastern Canadian waters, east coast of the United states, and the Caribbean for a few hundred dollars ($200? 300? Maybe 400? I forget). A bit pricey, but pretty much a no-brainer. I didn't know it at the time that those charts in Canada are staggeringly inaccurate! Still, it allowed our chartplotter to take us between points and mostly allowed entrance into marked harbors.

In addition, a multi-user, Multi-Device subscription to navionics for about $25 a year gave us excellent Navionics charts for the east coast of the United States and Canadian Atlantic waters, including the great lakes and the St Lawrence. Of course, that wasn't on the chartplotter, so not convenient at the helm. And it couldn't overlay radar.

Coming out of Yarmouth at night in the pouring rain, the Furuno chartplotter with C-Map wouldn't show the buoys (unlit, of course!) and Navionics on the cell phone was useless in the rain. Scary couple of miles!

We had about a hundred miles on the upper St Lawrence, where our chart plotter was blind. The NOAA charts had dropped off, and my Atlantic C-MAP charts hadn't picked up yet. Working exclusively on the cell phone with Navionics was satisfactory.

No, I didn't have a full set of paper charts for megabucks (and the associated storage issue) to cover our 4,000 mile passage. And I didn't have your specific charting program. But for a mainstream chart plotter and for a phone app, the price was certainly not a major impediment.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by navman

I post this because I have for years relied on paper charts as my primary source of truth for navigation, and these charts are being retired now over the coming years. The recreational boater faces some interesting issues with regard to insurance, and liability by not carrying up to date official charts, and all the commercial providers have disclaimers like:

This means the charts on your plotter, whether from Garmin, Navico, B&G, Raymarine, Furuno, or someone else do not qualify as "Official Charts" and therefore require the carriage of additional "Official Charts" when operating your vessel in US (or Canadian) waters to comply with their respective Federal Regulations.

So, for those transiting BC waters en route to Alaska, you're going to need some form of official charts, and if you want electronic versions, they will cost you dearly from what I can find (and I've spent hours looking for alternatives beyond O-Charts).

I'm not sure the issue is as dire as you imply. I've heard it tossed around on this forum for quite a bit. On our trip through Canada last summer, and the summer before, we carried nothing that would pass as official charts. I suspect that the vast majority of recreational boaters in Canada get by on a chartplotter, just as they do in the United States. I do have this nagging feeling in the back of my mind the Canada allows wiggle room for something along the lines of "means to accurately pilot the vessel."

It would be interesting to hear from someone on the forum who has been specifically cited after a boarding for failure to present official charts. And that citation would have to include disqualifying their Garmin chart plotter as being acceptable.

In the US of course there is zero requirement for a recreational boater to even know what state they're in, let alone have any form of chart on their vessel.

[Kelkara]

Are you worried about having adequate charts, or complying with the law?

There is currently no way a recreational boat navigating unfamiliar waters in Canada can comply with the letter of the law without carrying paper charts. Even if you buy the official ENC charts, your plotter isn't a compliant ECDIS ... and you need a second one as backup too.

As for adequate charts, lots of boats are out there navigating with unofficial charts on recreational plotters ... I have navionics on my plotter, and it's very good in BC ... but I like paper charts and carry a selection anyway (but not all).

[Kelkara]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

in the back of my mind the Canada allows wiggle room for something along the lines of "means to accurately pilot the vessel."

The "wiggle room" is for boats <100t navigating waters they have sufficient knowledge of etc ... that means that not every dingy, fishing trip etc needs charts ... but that doesn't sound to me like a cruiser exploring new ground.

However, I have never heard of any enforcement, I expect you'd have to make a navigational error that lands you in court.

[navman]

Originally Posted by Kelkara

Are you worried about having adequate charts, or complying with the law?

There is currently no way a recreational boat navigating unfamiliar waters in Canada can comply with the letter of the law without carrying paper charts. Even if you buy the official ENC charts, your plotter isn't a compliant ECDIS ... and you need a second one as backup too.

As for adequate charts, lots of boats are out there navigating with unofficial charts on recreational plotters ... I have navionics on my plotter, and it's very good in BC ... but I like paper charts and carry a selection anyway (but not all).

The main issue is with insurance. If, in a claim situation (liability or other), it is determined that you are out of compliance with the carriage reqs, and your insurance company denies the claim as a result, you're potentially many hundreds of thousands of dollars out of pocket.

Given the increasingly difficult situation with insurance on yachts over 20 years old, this is something I expect insurers to start using as a way to reduce their losses, especially given the dramatic increase in claims in past years.

All the insurer would have to do is point to the Navionics disclaimer and suggest that you wre navigating in a negligent manner as a result, and your claim is up in smoke.

[NSboatman]

As a recreational vessel, you’re not going to get into any legal trouble anywhere on the east coast of Canada from law enforcement for working only off electronic charts. Whether that’s legal or advisable is a different discussion… but there is a zero percent chance that you’ll get cited for this.

Frankly, you’re highly unlikely to get boarded at all in these waters. I have been sailing here for 38 years now- been boarded twice, (once about 10 yrs ago while anchored in Sheet Harbour- the cops were on a training session and were bored; and recently off Halifax by RCMP who were looking for drugs and human smugglers- they tracked us coming in from offshore via ais); and both experiences were nothing but friendly and pleasant. And no one asked to see either my paper charts or my certified ECDIS… personal ID, vessel reg, flares, fire extinguishers and pfd’s… but that was it.

[navman]

Originally Posted by NSboatman

As a recreational vessel, you’re not going to get into any legal trouble anywhere on the east coast of Canada from law enforcement for working only off electronic charts. Whether that’s legal or advisable is a different discussion… but there is a zero percent chance that you’ll get cited for this.

Frankly, you’re highly unlikely to get boarded at all in these waters. I have been sailing here for 38 years now- been boarded twice, (once about 10 yrs ago while anchored in Sheet Harbour- the cops were on a training session and were bored; and recently off Halifax by RCMP who were looking for drugs and human smugglers- they tracked us coming in from offshore via ais); and both experiences were nothing but friendly and pleasant. And no one asked to see either my paper charts or my certified ECDIS… personal ID, vessel reg, flares, fire extinguishers and pfd’s… but that was it.

Yes this is not at all the issue, I'm more than familiar with the waters, as I grew up on the West Coast of Vancouver Island, and have been sailing in the Great Bear for decades. This all boils down the the fact that I want the official, up to date charts from CHS that eliminate the Navionics/Navico/C-Map/Jeppson disclaimers that could provide the legal foundation for our insurance provider to deny a claim.

It would only take wrapping the prop in a submerged crab pot line to put the vessel at risk in places where extreme currents are commonplace.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by navman

The main issue is with insurance. If, in a claim situation (liability or other), it is determined that you are out of compliance with the carriage reqs, and your insurance company denies the claim as a result, you're potentially many hundreds of thousands of dollars out of pocket.

Given the increasingly difficult situation with insurance on yachts over 20 years old, this is something I expect insurers to start using as a way to reduce their losses, especially given the dramatic increase in claims in past years.

All the insurer would have to do is point to the Navionics disclaimer and suggest that you wre navigating in a negligent manner as a result, and your claim is up in smoke.

We hear on this forum over and over about insurance potentially denying claims for all measure of transgressions. Using improper led bulbs in nav lights. Using lithium batteries. Using household wiring. Going below while on autopilot. Failure to sound fog signals. Failure to carry fully updated (NOTAM) paper charts.

Other than policy language that might specifically exclude some item (being in hurricane area, for instance), I am skeptical. I'd love to hear real world examples where insurance fails to pay for simple negligence (I'd call all those, at worst, simple negligence). Perfect people on perfect boats don't need insurance.

I don't think my insurance includes exclusions for "any condition not 100% in compliance with ABYC or coast guard regulations, or other industry best practices."

I try to be legal. I try to be prudent. But I'm not perfect, and neither is my boat.

[navman]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

We hear on this forum over and over about insurance potentially denying claims for all measure of transgressions. Using improper led bulbs in nav lights. Using lithium batteries. Using household wiring. Going below while on autopilot. Failure to sound fog signals. Failure to carry fully updated (NOTAM) paper charts.

Other than policy language that might specifically exclude some item (being in hurricane area, for instance), I am skeptical. I'd love to hear real world examples where insurance fails to pay for simple negligence (I'd call all those, at worst, simple negligence). Perfect people on perfect boats don't need insurance.

I don't think my insurance includes exclusions for "any condition not 100% in compliance with ABYC or coast guard regulations, or other industry best practices."

I try to be legal. I try to be prudent. But I'm not perfect, and neither is my boat.

That's a fair statement, but in these waters the assumption is that you are far from help, and in many cases, unlikely to see other vessels for days. It's also the case that cruising in this area (anything North of Vancouver Island) requires a specific rider from our insurance underwriter for a fixed time period, and that rider explicitly spells out that we must comply with all federal requirements for safe operation of the vessel.

If you're not familiar with this area, this will give you an idea of the coastline:

i-Boating : Free Marine Navigation Charts & Fishing Maps

It's ALL a lee shore, and the last thing the waves saw was Japan. Conditions here can go from beautiful to hazardous in a couple hours, so seamanship skills are at a premium, as are the need for up to date charts.

[requiem]

The idea that you're covered (or uncovered, as the case may be) by using official charts may be more complicated than it seems.

The traditional gold standard is paper, and often the electronic equivalent is not just official charts but the accompanying display system. Thus, unless your country specifically allows it, anything short of commercial ECDIS doesn't count even if you are using official charts.

However, the next question is whether you required to carry charts in the first place: many leisure vessels are not subject to the same carriage requirements that large shipping traffic is, which could make it a moot point.

Next in line are insurance requirements: what does the insurer consider sufficient and what's in your contract?

Finally, we get to what charts you actually need. You may be in the clear if you have a handful of coastal or overview charts for the voyage, along with a subset of large-scale charts for specific harbors you intend to visit (either planned or as contingencies). If so, this may bring down the cost significantly. (Regardless of paper or electronic, as I believe official ENCs tend to be priced below paper, or at least similarly.)

[navman]

Originally Posted by requiem

Finally, we get to what charts you actually need. You may be in the clear if you have a handful of coastal or overview charts for the voyage, along with a subset of large-scale charts for specific harbors you intend to visit (either planned or as contingencies). If so, this may bring down the cost significantly. (Regardless of paper or electronic, as I believe official ENCs tend to be priced below paper, or at least similarly.)

Have you seen:

https://www.federalregister.gov/docu...e-requirements

It looks fairly innocent till you get to the part about uninspected vessels. This is going into enforcement in the US soon, comment period closed some time ago.

Now, this isn't Canada, but it will probably bleed into the legal on policies for US flagged vessels at some point, as those policies are written by lawyers who are tasked with maximizing profit for the underwriter.

At the end of the day I was hoping to get the ENC's from the CHS without being gutted for $1200.

I can get what is essentially identical (officially blessed) charts from O-Charts for Euro 20.00, but that restricts me to OpenCPN, and frankly, their ENC performance is horrific, and in many cases, wrong (this verified with others who educate professional mariners).

Because I use qtVlm, which I've found superior in every way, I'm faced with the unfortunate reality that official charts are going to be a big financial hit when buying charts outside the US.. so I guess I'll get out the old Amex card and earn some miles.

[sailingharry]

Two comments about that Federal register passage.

1) pleasure vessels are not uninspected vessels. Uninspected vessels are commercial vessels, with very limited passenger carrying. The classic six pack for instance.
2) the section regarding an inspected vessels and said they must carry charts of sufficient quantity and scale to allow safe navigation. Unless another section was more astringent, this does not appear to require "official charts."

And as an aside, since in the US paper charts have gone away, official charts would have to be digital and no uninspected vessel or pleasure vessel will carry appropriate instrumentation to display official charts.

Prudent and safe navigation can arguably be done on most any consumer grade charting system, including ocpn. It would be interesting to look at a specific example on the west coast of Canada at the difference between what ocpn displays and what a paper chart displays.