Southern Ocean Movement - Towards the South!!!

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by trifan

"So who do you believe these days, when politicians and scientists corrupt themselves for favours?"

"These days"? How is that limited to "these days"? I would bet that ancient Egyptians were bitching about the same thing back then.

Pretty sure we can all agree with this post .

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by picklesandjesse

In the 60's i was a tuna fisherman ( also known now as "fisher" ) out of Port Lincoln in South Australia and we fished in the Bight and a fair way south at times. We never felt like we were in the Indian Ocean and considered it to be the Southern Ocean and it sure felt like it at times. So what ocean was it ???

This the nub of it really.

Many modern sailors will know where they feel the Southern Ocean is. They may not be in agreement with each other but they will know what they personally feel. And all will be sure it is somewhere below the five great capes.

And I very sure all of the earlier sailors who sailed the clipper routes of the UK & Europe / Australian grain trade knew where it was.

It is a shame that governing bodies can't agree and come up with a more realistic
approach.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by StuM

Cant find the earlier thread, but the International Hydrographics Organisation is the prime authority and they wimped out in their primary document 'The Limits of Oceans and Seas' [IHO Special Publication 23, 1953]. https://epic.awi.de/29772/1/IHO1953a.pdf

They finally established it in 2000 as south of 60°S

Is this still a draft or has it been finally ratified.

[buzzstar]

Come on! Sailors, not geographers, map map makers, government offices, not oil companies, define the "Southern Ocean" for each other. Most oceans have fairly defined "basins." This one, does not. It is, to my mind, a reasonably well defined area, although it has no exact boundaries. 60 degrees? 59 degrees? Who cares (although some do)? I can say, for sure, that in one part of the world it does not extend beyond the southern end (side?) of Aus. In another parts it collides with a cape or two. Oh well, if I have not conveyed my position by now I am in dire straits, which can be anywhere.

[alctel]

Originally Posted by lordgeoff

.......yawn.
Quoting the Guardian.
The bastion of #FakeNews

Really? It's one of the more trusted news sources (obviously take everything with a grain of salt from anywhere you get information from outside of a primary source), mostly due to being run and having editorial policy set by a non-profit board. It recently became a company, but

The core purpose of the Trust was enshrined in the constitution of the Limited company and "cannot be altered or amended." The new company is barred from paying dividends, and "its constitution has been carefully drafted to ensure that no individual can ever personally benefit from the arrangements."'

They also rigorously fact check things and are way better than most sources about printing corrections.

Their opinions column can be a bit hang-wringy sometimes but there actual reporting is pretty solid.

Where did you hear it was 'fake news' ?

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by picklesandjesse

In the 60's i was a tuna fisherman ( also known now as "fisher" ) out of Port Lincoln in South Australia and we fished in the Bight and a fair way south at times. We never felt like we were in the Indian Ocean and considered it to be the Southern Ocean and it sure felt like it at times. So what ocean was it ???

Originally Posted by Wotname

This the nub of it really.

Many modern sailors will know where they feel the Southern Ocean is. They may not be in agreement with each other but they will know what they personally feel. And all will be sure it is somewhere below the five great capes.

And I very sure all of the earlier sailors who sailed the clipper routes of the UK & Europe / Australian grain trade knew where it was.

It is a shame that governing bodies can't agree and come up with a more realistic
approach.

Since it seems we cant trust politicans and oceanographers to define the boundaries we have to rely on sailors.

So as far as I am concerned from a sailing point of view the southern ocean starts at 40 deg south with the predominately westerly winds of the roaring forties, and furious fifties, and that's about where any meteorologist would put it from a climatic point of view.

The roaring forties is pretty distinct when you move south in the indian, pacific and atlantic oceans. Below 60 south (I think) should be really be called the antarctic ocean. Its quite different again with a fair proportion of easterlies, and icebergs.

There is some historical basis for this POV

From wikipedia

"John Payne in 1796 used 40 degrees as the northern limit"

'The United Kingdom's*South Australia Act 1834*described the waters forming the southern limit of the new colony of*South Australia*as "the Southern Ocean".'

And the shipping load line zones start the winter zones typically from about 35 to 45 degrees.

[knockabout]

the south pole is moving north

[Alan Mighty]

If you follow the hydrodyamics argument made in the link in post #4, you'd define the Southern Ocean by the Antarctic Circumpolar Current boundaries.

And those boundaries don't follow latitude lines. See: The Antarctic Circumpolar Current

[Alan Mighty]

If you were interested in the story of the Australia/Timor Leste maritime border mentioned above in this thread, a story that is about the first compulsory conciliation case under the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS), you might also be interested to read Hao Duy Phan's summary of what happened and why. See:

https://thediplomat.com/2018/05/aust...ation-process/

[billknny]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Does it matter

NOOOOO!

What a waste of electrons...

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by billknny

NOOOOO!

What a waste of electrons...

Clearly you don't live on the doorstep of the Southern Ocean or sail on it's shoreline

[buzzstar]

Originally Posted by Alan Mighty

If you were interested in the story of the Australia/Timor Leste maritime border mentioned above in this thread, a story that is about the first compulsory conciliation case under the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS), you might also be interested to read Hao Duy Phan's summary of what happened and why. See:

https://thediplomat.com/2018/05/aust...ation-process/

I read the item. Absolutely amazing language. A couple of the highlights are quoted below, with emphases added:

"On June 25 of that year, a five-member conciliation commission was constituted. On September 29, 2016, in response to Australia’s objection to its competence, the Commission issued a unanimous decision, finding that it had the competence to conciliate the dispute."

"While UNCLOS conciliation is not binding, its outcome is significant. The Convention requires the Commission to produce a report recording any agreements reached and, absent an agreement, its conclusions and recommendations on questions of fact or law relevant to the dispute. The two states then have the obligation to negotiate an agreement based on the conclusion and recommendations of the Commission. If the negotiation fails, they have the obligation to submit the dispute “by mutual consent” to binding adjudication or arbitration."

My cruising was to avoid the bureaucrats, they exert more control of the seas, perhaps most authoritatively in New Zealand, Australia, and their area of the Southern Ocean, but it is spreading. It does and will affect cruisers more and more. Do it while you are allowed.