Traffic Separation Zones

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by StuM

. (Mark thinks that you can swan around in the separation zone and don't need to yield to anyone)

.

Don't be stupid, and, don't make me out to be a moron, please.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Don't be stupid, and, don't make me out to be a moron, please.

Your words:
Many have a buffer zone in between them. Sail up that.
See 10(e)
...
Don't be afraid of TSS's, Channels, ships etc. you have exactly the same rights as a ship.

See 10(j)

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by StuM

...

(ii) to engage in fishing within a separation zone.

...

Yes, the ideal use for a separation zone!

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

Yes, the ideal use for a separation zone!

Yep, hang a small scallop dredge ( they used to be for sale in NZ.... haven't seen them for a while) off the back and away you go... no law against fishing under sail... in fact in some areas it is - or at least was - the law.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Yep, hang a small scallop dredge ( they used to be for sale in NZ.... haven't seen them for a while) off the back and away you go... no law against fishing under sail... in fact in some areas it is - or at least was - the law.

But make sure that you are displaying the appropriate lights/shapes IAW Rule 26

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by StuM

Your words:
Many have a buffer zone in between them. Sail up that.

Yes, he said "buffer zone", not "separation zone", which most reasonable people would assume refers to the unclassified waterspace that usually lies between the lanes and shoreline if there's no ITZ, or lies between sets of lanes. If unsure, it would have been better to seek clarification before going off.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by StuM

Your words:
Many have a buffer zone in between them. Sail up that.
See 10(e)
...

For clarity:

It's allowed to fish in a separation zone (the area between the lanes of a TSS).

But it's not allowed to sail in it except when you're crossing.


One gap in my knowledge, and question which I have, is whether, when crossing a TSS, you are expected to continue on a strict perpendicular heading through the separation zone, as well as the lanes. Anyone have any knowledge on this subject?

I have always assumed that you must not cross a traffic land and then sail parallel to the lanes in the separation zone, but that you may abandon a strict perpendicular heading in order to get into a better position in relation to your destination for crossing the next lane.


This is what I do, and no one has ever complained, but I can't figure out from the Rules whether this is correct practice or not. This practice is really helpful in the Dover Straits where Dover is quite a ways downchannel from Calais, and arriving at the wrong spot on the other side of the lanes can mean an awful slog uptide. So the opportunity to correct your position up- or downchannel in the separation zone is really useful.

I guess I should ask Dover Coast Guard next time I'm out there.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

For clarity:

It's allowed to fish in a separation zone (the area between the lanes of a TSS).

But it's not allowed to sail in it except when you're crossing.


One gap in my knowledge, and question which I have, is whether, when crossing a TSS, you are expected to continue on a strict perpendicular heading through the separation zone, as well as the lanes. Anyone have any knowledge on this subject?

I have always assumed that you must not cross a traffic land and then sail parallel to the lanes in the separation zone, but that you may abandon a strict perpendicular heading in order to get into a better position in relation to your destination for crossing the next lane.


This is what I do, and no one has ever complained, but I can't figure out from the Rules whether this is correct practice or not. This practice is really helpful in the Dover Straits where Dover is quite a ways downchannel from Calais, and arriving at the wrong spot on the other side of the lanes can mean an awful slog uptide. So the opportunity to correct your position up- or downchannel in the separation zone is really useful.

I guess I should ask Dover Coast Guard next time I'm out there.

Dockhead.. they monitor these area's very strictly on both sides of the Channel and you can be sure if you were doing something wrong you'd be hailed on ch16 and admonished/advised in short order.

[StuM]

Rule 10(c) specifically refers to crossing a traffic lane, not the separation zone.

Since you will be encountering traffic moving in the opposite direction in the second lane, it seems sensible to me to stay within the zone paralleling the next lane until it is safe to cross. In many cases it would be impractical to plot a single line that could safely cross both lanes and the separation zone in one run, especially given the length of time required to do so in a 20 mile wide TSS with an 10 mile separation zone between two 5 mile wide lanes (such as parts of the Dover Strait).

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by StuM

Rule 10(c) specifically refers to crossing a traffic lane, not the separation zone.

Since you will be encountering traffic moving in the opposite direction in the second lane, it seems sensible to me to stay within the zone paralleling the next lane until it is safe to cross. In many cases it would be impractical to plot a single line that could safely cross both lanes and the separation zone in one run, especially given the length of time required to do so in a 20 mile wide TSS with an 10 mile separation zone between two 5 mile wide lanes (such as parts of the Dover Strait).

That's pretty much exactly my own logic, but putting the lawyer hat on, that's not the only possible interpretation of the language of the Rule.

[MarkJ]

Just because someone posts their incorrect opinion 45 times in a thread does not suddenly make them right no matter how many Section Numbers they irellevantly quote.

Like the mythical rule of gross tonnage, Big Foot tries to rule internet forums.


I think I will go for a sail while u lot do the Sunday lawn mowing.

(Or snow shoveling )

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

. . . I think I will go for a sail while u lot do the Sunday lawn mowing.

(Or snow shoveling )

No snow on the South Coast these days! We had a magnificent small cruise to Poole and Yarmouth last week, with temps up to nearly 20C. Made the rain almost tolerable . Actually it even only rained one day Gentle South wind and wonderful sailing, too.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

One gap in my knowledge, and question which I have, is whether, when crossing a TSS, you are expected to continue on a strict perpendicular heading through the separation zone, as well as the lanes. Anyone have any knowledge on this subject?

I have always assumed that you must not cross a traffic land and then sail parallel to the lanes in the separation zone, but that you may abandon a strict perpendicular heading in order to get into a better position in relation to your destination for crossing the next lane.

Cockcroft seems to suggest that one is required to cross the separation zone at a right angle also. As is often the case in his guide, there is some latitude in how one might interpret his words. I think strict adherence to the rules would require you to cross the separation zone as quickly as possible, only veering from that in order to avoid a collision (or impeding) or to enter a lane. I don't really understand what you mean by getting into a better position, but assume that you could more properly, either follow a lane to a better place to cross, or correct your position once clear of the TSS.


Wanted to add - I'm not sure what is the appropriate way to cross the scheme, when the two lanes are not actually reciprocal.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Cockcroft seems to suggest that one is required to cross the separation zone at a right angle also. As is often the case in his guide, there is some latitude in how one might interpret his words. I think strict adherence to the rules would require you to cross the separation zone as quickly as possible, only veering from that in order to avoid a collision (or impeding) or to enter a lane. I don't really understand what you mean by getting into a better position, but assume that you could more properly, either follow a lane to a better place to cross, or correct your position once clear of the TSS.


Wanted to add - I'm not sure what is the appropriate way to cross the scheme, when the two lanes are not actually reciprocal.

I can well imagine such an interpretation, which is why I still have this question in my mind.

"Getting into a better position" has to do with the tide. If you've been swept downtide too far, to get back some distance uptide while in the separation zone. Yes, it could be done by following a lane for some distance, but this would involve much more potential "impeding" than simply deviating somewhat from right angles inside the separation zone, then going back to your correct perpendicular heading once you hit the next lane. Remember, we are supposed to avoid entering a TSS lane other than at the beginning of it, if possible.


By "reciprocal" -- do you mean parallel? Never seen a TSS where the lanes were not parallel. We do see Deep Water Route lanes which are not parallel, but these are not TSS's and these you don't need to cross on a perpendicular heading.

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Then again.. how do you know they have not made a 2degree course adjustment 10nm away.. you cant tell the difference.

If you have an AIS transponder (or even just a receiver), if the ship's AIS is working properly, then, you can see that course change by reading the data on the screen, if you're paying attention.. I don't think you can eyeball/see such a small course change, though, certainly not at that distance. And, it takes only a tiny change.

Too bad they don't have an emoticon with a little witch flying off on her broom, 'cause I'm outta here. I find the way some of the boys talk to each other extremely rude, and that offends me, when someone calls another "stupid" by saying, "you can't fix stupid." Shame. Clear explanation has no need for name calling, even by inference or by implication. 'Bye.

Ann