upgrade of navagation system

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Exile

Is there any downside to dispensing with a chartplotter altogether, and going instead with a PC and waterproof, daylight-readable repeater monitor in the cockpit? Far less expensive (most of us already have the PC although waterproof/high pixel monitors aren't cheap), easier to update charts, more flexible, and potentially more options when it comes to chart sourcing. AIS and, in some cases, radar can also be shown. Variety of software options to choose from, including OpenCPN freeware. Not necessarily trying to pitch one over the other, only wondering what dedicated chartplotters have to offer these days over the PC option.

This IS the way we navigate, with the PC below in a dry quiet nav station with a mouse and a keyboard. We can and do display nav info, including chart display, on deck. We also have several small B&G displays which can display any of the text data on deck and at the mast. We have two hot spare PC's with all recent nav data and other information, software, etc, on them.
Wind, speed, heading, and depth, are on separate boxes but are displayed on any of the multiple displays. A single failure does not takedown all the information.

Downside? Changes to the route you need to make or other interactions is not as easy from on deck with the on deck display as it would be with the large MFD. We usually have a person who pop's down to make any needed changes or closer examinations while the helm's person continues to con according to instructions from the navigator.

This arrangement works well for us, and has for years, and many ocean miles. Our route planning is one of the most important navigation tasks and we do it conscientiously ahead of time.

We also, with this arrangement, have the luxury of finding the best available charts for the PC before we arrive at an area.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by wingssail

If you replace your old B&G perhaps there is a market for the old stuff. Depending on what it is I might be interested.

Meanwhile, having all your navigation and instrumentation on one box at the helm station seems like putting all your eggs in one basket. And anyhow, I am not always sitting at my helm position so for me it would not be the most convenient set up.

And when doing route planning, do you do it at the helm station? Seems difficult, especially on a dark and rainy and windy night when you need to change your destination and set new courses and way points. Hard to do a good job of that our there on the MFD.

My preference is to do my navigation below at the nav station and have convenient displays in the cockpit.

I have old B&G instruments & AP, but my chartplotters are Garmin and radar is Furuno. Everything is repeated at the nav station & helm. So lots of redundancy, incl. portable GPS's and several different software programs on computers & devices. I do all my passage planning ahead of time and, like you, usually make needed changes down below at the nav station when underway. At this point the only add'l redundancy I'd like to have is a backup AP.

There's definitely a market for pre-Navico B&G instruments, and much of it seems to still be running well. Mine has the occasional glitch or two but not any worse than when I bought the boat 10 years ago. But it's a boat and so I know at some point it's day will come.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by wingssail

This IS the way we navigate, with the PC below in a dry quiet nav station with a mouse and a keyboard. We can and do display nav info, including chart display, on deck. We also have several small B&G displays which can display any of the text data on deck and at the mast. We have two hot spare PC's with all recent nav data and other information, software, etc, on them.
Wind, speed, heading, and depth, are on separate boxes but are displayed on any of the multiple displays. A single failure does not takedown all the information.

Downside? Changes to the route you need to make or other interactions is not as easy from on deck with the on deck display as it would be with the large MFD. We usually have a person who pop's down to make any needed changes or closer examinations while the helm's person continues to con according to instructions from the navigator.

This arrangement works well for us, and has for years, and many ocean miles. Our route planning is one of the most important navigation tasks and we do it conscientiously ahead of time.

We also, with this arrangement, have the luxury of finding the best available charts for the PC before we arrive at an area.

Useful information, thanks. It sounds like much of it comes down to the quality (i.e. water-resistant rating & daylight resolution) of the monitor up on deck.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by maxingout

I actually use paper charts to check what the electronic charts tell me. .

Are you comparing paper to electronic vector charts... or to electronic raster charts... or both... or something else?

What would be the difference you'd see between paper and electronic raster?

For OP, and FWIW, we have a Furuno suite , all almost 10 years old now. Everything works well, and I've received excellent product support on the few times I've had a question...

-Chris

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

What would be the difference you'd see between paper and electronic raster?

The electronic raster chart may not be exactly the same as the paper chart you have, it depends on which chart was rasterized.

In the Philippines we had four paper charts of the same area and locations were up to a mile off. A raster chart could have been any of the four.

[Favorite Things]

I have Raymarine system.
I encourage anyone looking at chartplotters also look at your laptop and an APP or software. Laptops are are a lot easier and cheaper to upgrade to the newest high speed laptop if that is what you want to do.
Even if it not your primary chartplotter. It is much easier to plan your cruise with a laptop than a chart plotter.
Check out a free download OpenCPN there are add-ones for weather GRIB, Radar and much more.

[GPatron]

The boat I bought has the original 2002 Ramarine Nav stuff.
Rather than make big changes and spend big buck I bought a 10" iPad, Navionics map software and a universal mount.

Now I have up-to-date Nav capabilities that I can take off the boat if I want to use it elsewhere

[Farang]

Originally Posted by BigAl.NZ

I have brought an Axiom 9" from Raymarine. Been very happy with it. In terms of the support I have rung the local agent who are hopeless, but when I have contacted Raymarine Australia, I have immediately always spoken to someone who has been helpful.

My 0.02c worth.

+1. I have an RM Axiom pro 9. The 7 I found just too small a screen. RM support AND warranty have been excellent when my RM Qantum radar malfunctioned and rotary ap drive gear jammed. Bought in Oz and replaced by local agent in Langkawi foc! Be aware the MFD glass screens can overheat and do shutdown (like your iphone). It's in the fine print of the operating manual. So at the nav table I have a RM 4x4 repeater for analog wind, speed and depth and opencpn on a laptop with a furuno gps as backup.

[JBP]

Originally Posted by moctrams

I'm very suspect of a "one system does it all". What happens when the screen goes blank, software goes bonkers and heaven knows what else? I'll take my old Data Marine wind ,depth, Garmin GPS, EV-100 autopilot, AIS, VHF radio. When one breaks, I'm not sunk.

While I agree completely with your sentiment, I don't think it applies to N2K systems if you have more than one display. Each MFD, PC, chartplotter, or even your your phone can act as the display for any of your sensors. E.g. if your depth display dies, you can read the depth on any other display.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by JBP

While I agree completely with your sentiment, I don't think it applies to N2K systems if you have more than one display. Each MFD, PC, chartplotter, or even your your phone can act as the display for any of your sensors. E.g. if your depth display dies, you can read the depth on any other display.

A fellow we know, let's call him Jim, and his crew, were travelling between two coastal ports using their ipad for navigation. They had other devices but the ipad was so easy, so convenient, they had gotten out of the habit of running the other gear.

As they approached the next port their ipad connected to the Internet and then started to query them about upgrading the software. Which software, I don't know. The pop-up upgrade window blocked their view of the nav screen. Not being total nerds, and being tired, they were slow to understand what was happening, and slower still understanding how to get out of it. As soon as they shut down the query window, it reappeared. They attempted to start the other systems, but had forgotten how.

Maybe they were too close already, and maybe a prudent mariner would have immediately turned around and headed out to sea. But they didn't realize that the issue would take a long time to resolve, and as their attention was captured on resolving the ipad issue, time got away from them, the situational awareness did not clarify itself, and they ran aground. The boat was lost. Luckily they were not.

There are several accounts of people who navigated by navionics on tablets, and have run aground due to inaccurate or out of date charts.

Another friend of mine totally crunched his keel because he did not see the reef on his small sized portable chart plotter.

I give a seminar about recommended route planning and safe navigating close to shore, titled, "How not to wreck your boat." There are five case studies of vessels who lost or severely damaged their vessels because they did not do a carefully prepared route before departure, and then missed avoiding very obvious dangers. Those routes are not easy to do competently on most MFD chart plotters out in the cockpit.

My advice is: Stay away from single device systems. Do detailed route planning. Do it before arriving at the destination, preferably before departing. Do it below deck if possible. When navigating, follow your route. Have a hot back-up. Keep a cool head; recognize that in any situation where navigation is in doubt get to a safe position, now.

[conachair]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Aand maybe a prudent mariner would have immediately...... .

glanced at the passage plan and carried on like nothing had happened....

[mikedefieslife]

Originally Posted by wingssail

A fellow we know, let's call him Jim, and his crew, were travelling between two coastal ports using their ipad for navigation. They had other devices but the ipad was so easy, so convenient, they had gotten out of the habit of running the other gear.

As they approached the next port their ipad connected to the Internet and then started to query them about upgrading the software. Which software, I don't know. The pop-up upgrade window blocked their view of the nav screen. Not being total nerds, and being tired, they were slow to understand what was happening, and slower still understanding how to get out of it. As soon as they shut down the query window, it reappeared. They attempted to start the other systems, but had forgotten how.

Maybe they were too close already, and maybe a prudent mariner would have immediately turned around and headed out to sea. But they didn't realize that the issue would take a long time to resolve, and as their attention was captured on resolving the ipad issue, time got away from them, the situational awareness did not clarify itself, and they ran aground. The boat was lost. Luckily they were not.

There are several accounts of people who navigated by navionics on tablets, and have run aground due to inaccurate or out of date charts.

Another friend of mine totally crunched his keel because he did not see the reef on his small sized portable chart plotter.

I give a seminar about recommended route planning and safe navigating close to shore, titled, "How not to wreck your boat." There are five case studies of vessels who lost or severely damaged their vessels because they did not do a carefully prepared route before departure, and then missed avoiding very obvious dangers. Those routes are not easy to do competently on most MFD chart plotters out in the cockpit.

My advice is: Stay away from single device systems. Do detailed route planning. Do it before arriving at the destination, preferably before departing. Do it below deck if possible. When navigating, follow your route. Have a hot back-up. Keep a cool head; recognize that in any situation where navigation is in doubt get to a safe position, now.

All this tells us is that these people made mistakes and they weren't about the tech they were using.

As for stories of people running aground with Navionics, I can bet you way more have run aground using paper charts.

[Snore]

Originally Posted by mikedefieslife

All this tells us is that these people made mistakes and they weren't about the tech they were using.



As for stories of people running aground with Navionics, I can bet you way more have run aground using paper charts.

Agreed. 99% of the time, if I am delivering a 2002 yacht, the charts are from 2002. Whereas my iPad has charts that were updated the day before my departure.

iPads are another tool to be used in navigation. They are not perfect, but a tool to be used prudently.

[Pelagic]

Nothing wrong with IPad or other portable devices for 90% of the conditions we encounter,

But ......when the weather turns nasty, sea state high, rain horizontal, I feel more comfortable with rugged, built-in instruments in the cockpit.

This really is when you need them the most!

It may be too lively to be scrolling on one display, when called up on deck in a panic situation.
Better to have separate instrument displays for Wind and Depth, so you can see clearly at a glance the situation, if the watch keeper is in the middle of an avoidance maneuver, when they call you up.

When its a wild night of coasting, I like the MFD screen maximized for Radar /AIS and a toggle to chart display.

In those conditions, you give yourself plenty of sea room so you can focus on target interaction, Parallel indexing and a separate dedicated lookout.

I've always had good luck with Furuno equipment.
They are well made, have the best MTBF record of any of the commercial manufacturers and great technical support via Furuno USA.

This is how my cockpit console is set up with the sperate instruments and the MFD remote to use when driving rain/spume makes for a wet touch screen and fingers.
You just don't have that feature and rugged reliability with non marinized devices for those conditions.

[two-rocks]

When with Raymarine Axiom 7" and all the extras (AP. wind, depth, speed) for our boat last year.

Use an Ipad or tablet for route planning, navionics, backup, etc. No need for separates down below.

The tablet mirrors and controls everything the CP does (except steer to wind - need AP head buttons pushed). RM just added Advanced sailing features, uses the polar data for your boat - used it briefly yesterday - very cool.

I would think with Axiom products (android OS based) getting predict wind info would be something easy....getting Raymarine to implement such things seems more difficult. They focus heavily on the fishing market (follow the $$$$).