upgrade of navagation system

[nhschneider]

We upgraded our entire navigation electronics just before we left on our circumnavigation over 8 years ago. All Garmin - chart plotter, radar, AIS, sonar and sailing instruments but the autopilot was Simrad. I chose to install two through-hull transducers - a big Airmar to work with the sonar and a much less powerful one. When we’re at anchor, we keep our sailing instruments on and they give us water depth and temperature at a relatively low power draw. The redundancy of two transducers gives piece of mind.

We have found the Garmin system to be very easy to use and reliable, despite its almost non-stop use for 8 years. Last year we sent our chart plotter back to Garmin and they installed a new mother board for US$500, which I didn’t think was too bad for a 9-year old piece of electronics. The few times we’ve needed support from Garmin, they’ve always been quick to take my call or call me back if I’m not inclined to wait.

However, we realize that our navigation electronics are reaching the end of their useful lives and if we’re going to continue doing blue-water passages, we’ll need to consider replacing everything.

Fair winds and calm seas.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by wingssail

The electronic raster chart may not be exactly the same as the paper chart you have, it depends on which chart was rasterized.

Well, yes, of course. Equally, if you have an old paper chart... there might be newer paper charts.

FWIW, our plotter uses either raster and vector charts, and near as I can tell the raster charts are (nearly) the same as the latest paper charts. The "nearly" part is about the combiner's process; I'm not sure how that works but I have't yet noticed an out-of-date electronic raster chart included in the chart pak.

Originally Posted by wingssail

In the Philippines we had four paper charts of the same area and locations were up to a mile off. A raster chart could have been any of the four.

Problematic. But if you only had one of those paper charts, it could have been the one (ones?) with location errors?

-Chris

[sailah]

I've had pretty good luck with Garmin for a variety of devices, boats, motorcycles. All have been reliable. Some of the newish "smart" devices like my Garmin Montana 600 when it came out were not very intuitive and menus buried. I find my new MFD from Garmin to be very easy to jump into and use.

On the boat we had/have a Garmin 3206 with radar, Garmin 440 at Nav (fully separate with own antenna), RM ST60+ instruments, Simrad AP11 hydraulic autopilot. All were separate, nothing connected.

The plastic protective screen on Garmin separated and let water into MFD. I cut new piece of glass and repaired but needed to be replaced. I considered the RM Axiom series but after playing with both at West Marine, I like the Garmin 942xs much better. Screen was better, fit my NavPod with almost no mods. The 7" Axiom seemed smaller than my 6" garmin due to touchscreen and thin surround. I bought the Garmin even though it was 2X the price because I didn't need to but a new Navpod and the screen area was much larger.

I connected the ST60+ instruments to an NMEA2K backbone using the Ray converter. This put all instruments on Garmin like depth, AWA, boat speed etc. which also enables the advanced sailing features.

I connected the Simrad brain to the Garmin using NMEA0183 which is OK but def not as nice as 2K but whatever.

Since the small Garmin 440 was already built into nav, and the new Garmin can't use the old radome, and I rarely use Radar, I moved the 3206 under the cockpit locker where it can be seen with the seat up. I left the antenna attached as well as radome so I really have 3 fully redundant systems not counting a handheld or phones.

I have not tried Garmin Active Captain but I understand it uses the MFD as a wifi router and puts all charts on iPad or Android as well as planning etc. I have used iPads before in cockpit (and at one point relied on it when Garmin failed) but it always seems less than ideal. Now sitting at nav station at night with a beer and planning out route on iPad seems very ideal and that's what I'll probably do.

[wackerb]

Pardon any repeats, but my 2011 40' catamaran had 2 Garmin plotters (helm & nav station) and older Raymarine SPX-30 Autopilot. They did pretty well across the Atlantic and up to Mexico but had the occasional AP hang and/or shutdown. To restart the AP required opening the engine compartment, removing the AP controller cover and popping the fuse. There may have been a breaker somewhere, but I never had the time to go hunting. It was very inconvenient in high seas or at critical times.

Another extremely annoying feature of the RM autopilots (present included) is requiring manual confirmation of EVERY waypoint change on a previously loaded route. So I'm single handing on a 2,000 mile great circle route where there are 1 degree direction changes every so often and the AP demands attention. Whether from not responding in time or just because, it would also spontaneously go into standby.

Knowing I'd be doing more single handing I replaced the MFD's and AP with Navico to match the Lowrance radar and small plotter I'd added before.

That worked well enough from Hawaii through French Polynesia to New Zealand, but the AP would never settle down, always twitching the wheel and many support contacts could not resolve it. I also was disappointed that, though instantaneous reading for wind, etc. could be smoothed for display, it did not affect internal use in calculations or alarms. So, I think part of the AP twitching was due to the natural variations in GPS positions and wild variations in wind speed and direction caused by sensors being at the end of a sometimes wildly gyrating mast head 70' above the water. To notify a major change in wind above 25 kt I had to set the alarm limit at 45 or 50 kt. Same for low wind, wind shift, boat speed high or low, etc.

BTW, I'd attended a Navico seminar at a boat show that said they'd solved the masthead induced motions. About time since every smart phone has the electronics to compensate for the induced motion. Wrong. They didn't mention that it was a pure software thing in their super expensive H5000 racing computer .

I'd also installed Navico's forward scan to help deal with S Pacific reefs and atolls, but it is completely worthless.

So Raymarine has their 9 axis motion sensor and a good reputation for their autopilot which was my main concern, so out with the Navico, keeping a Zeus2 for the radar and in with Raymarine (again).

The autopilot does function much better from an energy saving reduction in wheel twitching, but still requires manual confirmation of each waypoint advance. That almost got me while crossing a particularly dangerous bar at the entrance of Kaipara Harbor in New Zealand. Their Coast Guard had kindly supplied me with waypoints to safely cross but I actually missed two confirmations because I was below on the radio. The alarms are so soft as to be inaudible at the helm with wind and engine noises, much less inside with radio noise. Fortunately I got back before running aground, but it just flabbergasts me that Raymarine will not budge from requiring the stupid confirmation of instructions already given to the (auto) pilot. Any other pilot would be reprimanded for demanding constant confirmation of standing instructions, but RM is intransigent on the subject. They won't even make it an option to set the alarm over a settable number of degrees like Navico does.

So my primary goal of an efficient autopilot has been met albeit with some user interface problems by Raymarine. The other gotcha with RM is very few alarms. No wind high/low/shift, no boat speed high/low. The kind of things needed for sailing. And, of course, no smoothing internally or for display. I sent them a video of the true wind arrow literally going around in circles, probably from GPS jitters, but it sure makes for an interesting display. They've added lay lines recently, but their major orientation and history is still motorized fishing boats. I get the feeling that they have one guy who actually sails and they keep him locked in a room and slide pizzas under the door.

Navico also has a graphic display of values over time so I still have one that shows boat speed through water, true wind speed, apparent wind speed and angle for easy comparison and seeing if changes are trends worth making sail changes and what effect they have on boat speed.

So, if you want the best fundamental sailing features I'd recommend Navico. For autopilot, Raymarine if you can stand the emphasis on waypoint confirmation and alarm modes. Sheesh, you'd think they're proponents of a waypoint religion.

BTW, I use Navionics charts and there's a PC program for planning called Navigation Planner which allows copying the maps to the PC for planning purposes. I then download route, waypoints, etc. to a usb or sd drive on my nav station (RM) Axiom which has the map chips in it and automatically populates my helm Axiom Pro which also uses the map chips over the network. None of the chartplotters I've used are convenient for route planning.

I've also tried the RM tablet/smartphone app, but despite the Ray Remote claims of control, it is only really good as display only.

[wackerb]

I forgot to mention that a dealer tole me there are problems between Garmin and Raymarine autopilots which may have caused some of my original shutdowns

[mikedefieslife]

Originally Posted by wackerb

Pardon any repeats, but my 2011 40' catamaran had 2 Garmin plotters (helm & nav station) and older Raymarine SPX-30 Autopilot. They did pretty well across the Atlantic and up to Mexico but had the occasional AP hang and/or shutdown. To restart the AP required opening the engine compartment, removing the AP controller cover and popping the fuse. There may have been a breaker somewhere, but I never had the time to go hunting. It was very inconvenient in high seas or at critical times.

Another extremely annoying feature of the RM autopilots (present included) is requiring manual confirmation of EVERY waypoint change on a previously loaded route. So I'm single handing on a 2,000 mile great circle route where there are 1 degree direction changes every so often and the AP demands attention. Whether from not responding in time or just because, it would also spontaneously go into standby.

Knowing I'd be doing more single handing I replaced the MFD's and AP with Navico to match the Lowrance radar and small plotter I'd added before.

That worked well enough from Hawaii through French Polynesia to New Zealand, but the AP would never settle down, always twitching the wheel and many support contacts could not resolve it. I also was disappointed that, though instantaneous reading for wind, etc. could be smoothed for display, it did not affect internal use in calculations or alarms. So, I think part of the AP twitching was due to the natural variations in GPS positions and wild variations in wind speed and direction caused by sensors being at the end of a sometimes wildly gyrating mast head 70' above the water. To notify a major change in wind above 25 kt I had to set the alarm limit at 45 or 50 kt. Same for low wind, wind shift, boat speed high or low, etc.

BTW, I'd attended a Navico seminar at a boat show that said they'd solved the masthead induced motions. About time since every smart phone has the electronics to compensate for the induced motion. Wrong. They didn't mention that it was a pure software thing in their super expensive H5000 racing computer .

I'd also installed Navico's forward scan to help deal with S Pacific reefs and atolls, but it is completely worthless.

So Raymarine has their 9 axis motion sensor and a good reputation for their autopilot which was my main concern, so out with the Navico, keeping a Zeus2 for the radar and in with Raymarine (again).

The autopilot does function much better from an energy saving reduction in wheel twitching, but still requires manual confirmation of each waypoint advance. That almost got me while crossing a particularly dangerous bar at the entrance of Kaipara Harbor in New Zealand. Their Coast Guard had kindly supplied me with waypoints to safely cross but I actually missed two confirmations because I was below on the radio. The alarms are so soft as to be inaudible at the helm with wind and engine noises, much less inside with radio noise. Fortunately I got back before running aground, but it just flabbergasts me that Raymarine will not budge from requiring the stupid confirmation of instructions already given to the (auto) pilot. Any other pilot would be reprimanded for demanding constant confirmation of standing instructions, but RM is intransigent on the subject. They won't even make it an option to set the alarm over a settable number of degrees like Navico does.

So my primary goal of an efficient autopilot has been met albeit with some user interface problems by Raymarine. The other gotcha with RM is very few alarms. No wind high/low/shift, no boat speed high/low. The kind of things needed for sailing. And, of course, no smoothing internally or for display. I sent them a video of the true wind arrow literally going around in circles, probably from GPS jitters, but it sure makes for an interesting display. They've added lay lines recently, but their major orientation and history is still motorized fishing boats. I get the feeling that they have one guy who actually sails and they keep him locked in a room and slide pizzas under the door.

Navico also has a graphic display of values over time so I still have one that shows boat speed through water, true wind speed, apparent wind speed and angle for easy comparison and seeing if changes are trends worth making sail changes and what effect they have on boat speed.

So, if you want the best fundamental sailing features I'd recommend Navico. For autopilot, Raymarine if you can stand the emphasis on waypoint confirmation and alarm modes. Sheesh, you'd think they're proponents of a waypoint religion.

BTW, I use Navionics charts and there's a PC program for planning called Navigation Planner which allows copying the maps to the PC for planning purposes. I then download route, waypoints, etc. to a usb or sd drive on my nav station (RM) Axiom which has the map chips in it and automatically populates my helm Axiom Pro which also uses the map chips over the network. None of the chartplotters I've used are convenient for route planning.

I've also tried the RM tablet/smartphone app, but despite the Ray Remote claims of control, it is only really good as display only.

I agree Raymarine requiring constant attention for waypoint changes is a pain, especially when only changing by a few degrees.

You can get around this by using a Yacht Device NMEA200/wifi gateway. It can send various sentences to the Raymarine control head, and auto confirm waypoints.

As for the alarm loudness. Raymarine have now introduced SeatalkNG alarm repeaters. These are great when singlehanding, as you say it's difficult to hear the alarm at the helm if you're inside, especially with the engine running.

In terms of wind alarms and speed etc.. Raymarine Tacktick units in particular the NM100-2 that I had would sound alarms for set wind speeds, depths, and speed.

Similarly my MFD (a Simrad NSS) can have alarms set for a large number of things like that, so it's surprising to hear that Raymarine MFDs and display instruments can't.

And yep, you're right, so many of these devices are gear towards motorboaters and fishing. Personally I have absolutely no interest in fishing at all, so paying for the development and implantation of fishing features is upsetting.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by sailah

On the boat we had/have a Garmin 3206 with radar, Garmin 440 at Nav (fully separate with own antenna), RM ST60+ instruments, Simrad AP11 hydraulic autopilot. All were separate, nothing connected.

We have the same, RM and Garmin chart plotters, autopilot and instruments all independent with separate fuses. The only connection is the AIS which displays on the Garmin at the wheel. Oh and two depth sounders which seem to play nicely together.

Pete

[Exile]

Originally Posted by sailah

I've had pretty good luck with Garmin for a variety of devices, boats, motorcycles. All have been reliable. Some of the newish "smart" devices like my Garmin Montana 600 when it came out were not very intuitive and menus buried. I find my new MFD from Garmin to be very easy to jump into and use.

On the boat we had/have a Garmin 3206 with radar, Garmin 440 at Nav (fully separate with own antenna), RM ST60+ instruments, Simrad AP11 hydraulic autopilot. All were separate, nothing connected.

Originally Posted by Pete7

We have the same, RM and Garmin chart plotters, autopilot and instruments all independent with separate fuses. The only connection is the AIS which displays on the Garmin at the wheel. Oh and two depth sounders which seem to play nicely together.

Pete

Despite also being discontinued, I've had similarly good reliability from my 4208/4008 nav/helm Garmin plotters which date from 2007. I've also owned smaller (and now ancient) 276C/376C & Colorado units which I've used extensively on dirt bikes, autos & the boat, and they've proven remarkably durable.

I suppose one downside to not having nav systems integrated is that costs of chart updating, and more significantly expanding one's chart coverage if needed, are compounded. For example, I'm currently planning a passage to Bermuda from the US mid-Atlantic coast and finding that I need to purchase add'l charts for each of my Garmin devices separately. OpenCPN includes a NOAA plotting chart and pilot charts, but it appears that charts for Bermuda itself require an add'l purchase. No different from paper charts which I'll also need to purchase, only compounded if you want your separate/backup electronic devices to retain their functionality.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

Well, yes, of course. Equally, if you have an old paper chart... there might be newer paper charts....

Problematic. But if you only had one of those paper charts, it could have been the one (ones?) with location errors?
-Chris

Yes exactly. I mentioned this because mariners need to know that both vector and raster charts (and paper charts) can have errors and some common sense validation while navigation near land is essential. Take a couple of bearings, for example, and see if the resulting lines of position agree with what the chart says. Don't trust the chart explicitly.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by wackerb

Pardon any repeats, but my 2011 40' catamaran had 2 Garmin plotters (helm & nav station) and older Raymarine SPX-30 Autopilot. They did pretty well across the Atlantic and up to Mexico but had the occasional AP hang and/or shutdown. To restart the AP required opening the engine compartment, removing the AP controller cover and popping the fuse. There may have been a breaker somewhere, but I never had the time to go hunting. It was very inconvenient in high seas or at critical times.

Another extremely annoying feature of the RM autopilots (present included) is requiring manual confirmation of EVERY waypoint change on a previously loaded route. So I'm single handing on a 2,000 mile great circle route where there are 1 degree direction changes every so often and the AP demands attention. Whether from not responding in time or just because, it would also spontaneously go into standby.

Knowing I'd be doing more single handing I replaced the MFD's and AP with Navico to match the Lowrance radar and small plotter I'd added before.

That worked well enough from Hawaii through French Polynesia to New Zealand, but the AP would never settle down, always twitching the wheel and many support contacts could not resolve it. I also was disappointed that, though instantaneous reading for wind, etc. could be smoothed for display, it did not affect internal use in calculations or alarms. So, I think part of the AP twitching was due to the natural variations in GPS positions and wild variations in wind speed and direction caused by sensors being at the end of a sometimes wildly gyrating mast head 70' above the water. To notify a major change in wind above 25 kt I had to set the alarm limit at 45 or 50 kt. Same for low wind, wind shift, boat speed high or low, etc.

BTW, I'd attended a Navico seminar at a boat show that said they'd solved the masthead induced motions. About time since every smart phone has the electronics to compensate for the induced motion. Wrong. They didn't mention that it was a pure software thing in their super expensive H5000 racing computer .

I'd also installed Navico's forward scan to help deal with S Pacific reefs and atolls, but it is completely worthless.

So Raymarine has their 9 axis motion sensor and a good reputation for their autopilot which was my main concern, so out with the Navico, keeping a Zeus2 for the radar and in with Raymarine (again).

The autopilot does function much better from an energy saving reduction in wheel twitching, but still requires manual confirmation of each waypoint advance. That almost got me while crossing a particularly dangerous bar at the entrance of Kaipara Harbor in New Zealand. Their Coast Guard had kindly supplied me with waypoints to safely cross but I actually missed two confirmations because I was below on the radio. The alarms are so soft as to be inaudible at the helm with wind and engine noises, much less inside with radio noise. Fortunately I got back before running aground, but it just flabbergasts me that Raymarine will not budge from requiring the stupid confirmation of instructions already given to the (auto) pilot. Any other pilot would be reprimanded for demanding constant confirmation of standing instructions, but RM is intransigent on the subject. They won't even make it an option to set the alarm over a settable number of degrees like Navico does.

So my primary goal of an efficient autopilot has been met albeit with some user interface problems by Raymarine. The other gotcha with RM is very few alarms. No wind high/low/shift, no boat speed high/low. The kind of things needed for sailing. And, of course, no smoothing internally or for display. I sent them a video of the true wind arrow literally going around in circles, probably from GPS jitters, but it sure makes for an interesting display. They've added lay lines recently, but their major orientation and history is still motorized fishing boats. I get the feeling that they have one guy who actually sails and they keep him locked in a room and slide pizzas under the door.

Navico also has a graphic display of values over time so I still have one that shows boat speed through water, true wind speed, apparent wind speed and angle for easy comparison and seeing if changes are trends worth making sail changes and what effect they have on boat speed.

So, if you want the best fundamental sailing features I'd recommend Navico. For autopilot, Raymarine if you can stand the emphasis on waypoint confirmation and alarm modes. Sheesh, you'd think they're proponents of a waypoint religion.

BTW, I use Navionics charts and there's a PC program for planning called Navigation Planner which allows copying the maps to the PC for planning purposes. I then download route, waypoints, etc. to a usb or sd drive on my nav station (RM) Axiom which has the map chips in it and automatically populates my helm Axiom Pro which also uses the map chips over the network. None of the chartplotters I've used are convenient for route planning.

I've also tried the RM tablet/smartphone app, but despite the Ray Remote claims of control, it is only really good as display only.

This is the most detailed and useful comment on instrumentation I've seen, and I found it highly educational. It would be good if the sales people selling this stuff, and even the support people at RM and Garmin were as knowledgeable as wackerb.

BTW, it's obvious that the waypoint change confirmation is intentional because someone thought that having the vessel automatically change heading towards the next waypoint could be catastrophic in the case that the waypoint was entered incorrectly. (like, Sh*T! don't turn NOW! we're right in the middle of a narrow, straight, channel with rocks on both sides!).

On the other hand, proceeding ahead with out a turn could be just as catastrophic.

Maybe some really heavy duty AI could figure out when to require confirmation, but I think this is a complex issue. Think MCAS.

Automatically following a route is like spinning a roulette wheel.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Exile

I suppose one downside to not having nav systems integrated is that costs of chart updating, and more significantly expanding one's chart coverage if needed, are compounded.

True, I paid full wack for the Garmin NW Europe upgrade chart in 2017 (ouch) but found a Navionics 2018 chart for the RM cheap on another forum which helped. Having two separate reasonably up to date charting systems on board does help when we are in shallow water, our normal cruising grounds.

Having Bermuda on a separate chart is a bit naughty and perhaps profiteering. However, having been diving there, no way would I approach without up to date charts.

Pete

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Pete7

True, I paid full wack for the Garmin NW Europe upgrade chart in 2017 (ouch) but found a Navionics 2018 chart for the RM cheap on another forum which helped.

Having Bermuda on a separate chart is a bit naughty and perhaps profiteering. However, having been diving there, no way would I approach without up to date charts.

Pete

Agreed!

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by wackerb

...the AP would never settle down, always twitching the wheel and many support contacts could not resolve it. I also was disappointed that, though instantaneous reading for wind, etc. could be smoothed for display, it did not affect internal use in calculations or alarms...

Just one more comment on this post, FWIW:

My B&G Hercules (older model) has adjustable damping for all sensor input. (But GPS Input from non-B&G has damping in the GPS unit). They affect all the calculations. There is no "smoothing" for the displays, which simply repeat what the CPU has calculated. I am surprised that other systems do not have this capability.

The alarm capabilities are extensive on the Hercules system, but I don't use them much, (wind direction while at anchor at night is an exception) but they appear to use the dampened data.

The RM X5 autopilot and the previous Autohelm ST4000GP work on heading alone, and are not twitchy.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by wackerb

...the AP would never settle down, always twitching the wheel and many support contacts could not resolve it. I also was disappointed that, though instantaneous reading for wind, etc. could be smoothed for display, it did not affect internal use in calculations or alarms...

Just one more comment on this post, FWIW:

My B&G Hercules (older model) has adjustable damping for all sensor input. (But GPS Input from non-B&G has damping in the GPS unit). They affect all the calculations. There is no "smoothing" for the displays, which simply repeat what the CPU has calculated. I am surprised that other systems do not have this capability.

The alarm capabilities are extensive on the Hercules system, but I don't use them much, (wind direction while at anchor at night is an exception) but they appear to use the dampened data.

The RM X5 autopilot and the previous Autohelm ST4000GP work on heading alone, and are not twitchy.

[more]

Originally Posted by Exile

poor customer service/response when it comes to the new (Navico) B&G products. As usual, reports of problems are mixed, and may, of course, come down to installation issues.

Comments?

Look my problem B&G New Triton from the box doesn't work on a desk.
Problem is Airmar DST800V Plastic 235 kHz Thru-Hull Transducer Provides Speed, Depth, Temp. Simply do not communicate with instruments.

https://youtu.be/2Gc1zz5bl8I?t=20

comment from B&G support.
Please advise how B&G was able to determine it was defective if it was never installed. We need details on how it was tested and the problem isolated to the sensor.

--------------
also, he says.
Your first contact is your dealer in all questions. You have a contract with him - not with us.
The next step would be that this dealer contacts the distributor in his country.


----------------------

Dear Sirs,
OB warranty applies to ships that have an original installation with a 24-month installation certificate. Since the date of installation on board.
In case the boat has a certificate of installation in the last 24 months, the OBS is valid for the whole world
In case you do not have a certificate we are not responsible for the installation

------------------




Normally



https://www.bandg.com/contact-us/
did not answer anything, I send before couple day only answer I receive from

sales@navico.com
you gone back to the dealer that you brought it from and asked them for some advice?

Please give me an email address where you bay/order this kit. this is a game big brand. Or you ask https://www.bandg.com what to do next.


and again in a circle.



Please member watch my video and free to comment, your experiences. with B&G . Also, I soon make video my osculati water temperature and oil pressure. Also new from box twice. Now, I bay Chinese KUS V series Marine.

USA Faria, I exchange diesel fuel and work excellent.

--------------
also, he says.
Your first contact is your dealer in all questions. You have a contract with him - not with us.
The next step would be that this dealer contacts the distributor in his country.


----------------------

Dear Sirs,
OB warranty applies to ships that have an original installation with a 24-month installation certificate. Since the date of installation on board.
In case the boat has a certificate of installation in the last 24 months, the OBS is valid for the whole world
In case you do not have a certificate we are not responsible for the installation

------------------




Normally



https://www.bandg.com/contact-us/
did not answer anything, I send before couple day only answer I receive from

sales@navico.com
you gone back to the dealer that you brought it from and asked them for some advice?

Please give me an email address where you bay/order this kit. this is a game big brand. Or you ask https://www.bandg.com what to do next.


and again in a circle.



Please member watch my video and free to comment, your experiences. with B&G . Also, I soon make video my osculati water temperature and oil pressure. Also new from box twice. Now, I bay Chinese KUS V series Marine.

USA Faria, I exchange diesel fuel level and work excellent.