Voice Recognition for Log?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by MikeDofFreo

In my view the computer technology has only just caught up with Dragon. I now use it with a PC with i7 CPU and 16Gbs RAM. The results are great and I love it.

I didn't really that voice recognition is so computationally intensive.


But it wouldn't be all that big a deal to upgrade the boat computer if necessary.

[hellosailor]

Dockhead-
Your picture of how electronic "documents" are accepted is somewhat skewed. Just this week the Wall Street Journal was talking about how the State of Israel is driving the young Israelis nuts, because even routine banking transactions will be accepted BY FAX but not allowed by phone apps or emails. And not just the banks, but all sorts of official "paperwork". Co-incidentally I'd been mourning the disappearance of fax in the US, it is so much simpler than the "How do you spell that email?" and "then print out the thing after you've kept checking to see if it arrived" dance.

But emails pass through servers, and servers keep log files, so emails CAN be authenticated to some extent. The same way that businesses preferred to keep using Telex after fax came around, because Telex kept a central log file. As least fax maachines keep time stamps, which can be authenticated at the telco's.

Plain email documents, that exist only on private servers? ROFLMAO. Yes, on "new" computers there are often invisible streams on every file that say who and when it was last accesses, created, etc. But that's not universal, and it can be tampered with--easily. As an evidentiary matter...that's going to mean an expensive forensics argument in many cases. Leading only to ambiguous results in many others. Ask anyone who is seriously into the IT admin side, or who has dealt with file recovery and knows what "streams" on journaling file systems (like Unix, OS/2 and NT) are.
It is *not* at all secured or untamperable. A document that does not have an encrypted digital signature attached to it, should easily be shredded (figuratively) by the opposition. Which is why the federal laws accept digital signatures ONLY when they meet specific standards that make reasonable assurance of authentication.
Which most folks still don't use, have, or understand.

Integrating that into an online log? Possible. Might be there in some commercial products. I think you'd have to poll some navies and commercial fleets to find out what's really out there, or why it isn't.

A long time ago, when the FBI gave public tours of their building and labs, they used to say that the hardest writing to tamper with was...PENCIL, NOT INK. Apparently every ink could be either bleached or solvent released. (At least back then. Now some can even be removed by heat.) Where the graphite "lead" from a pencil gets embedded into paper fibers, and can always be brought back by x-ray viewing, and visible tearing of the paper surface if erasing was tried.

And if you keep your log in pencil, it can't run when wet, either.

Forensics, on or off the computer, can be more subtle than CIS.(G)

[WingRyder]

How does all this pan out when you’ve got a 3d world “official” onboard, requesting to see your logbook? I assume he’s gonna be expecting a dog-eared old notebook, and not some fancy computer screen... just curious.

[conachair]

Originally Posted by WingRyder

How does all this pan out when you’ve got a 3d world “official” onboard, requesting to see your logbook? I assume he’s gonna be expecting a dog-eared old notebook, and not some fancy computer screen... just curious.

It's only on internet forums where the world is black and white and you are only allowed to do things just one way...

Real world is different, I use the konni logbook plug as well, it's great! And transfer a very sparse version to the paper log mainly just with left/arrived. No legal requirement to keep a log book for us little pleasure boat people of less than 150 gt, but as often said if kept it can be used as a legal document.
If some 3rd world official would like to see your log it's more likely cos he hardly ever gets to see one, most boats he'll see won't even know what one is.
Voice recognition, imho, might be going a little bit far though..

[Montanan]

I keep my electronic log on an Etch A Sketch.

[conachair]

Originally Posted by Montanan

I keep my electronic log on an Etch A Sketch.

Raspberry Pi is cheaper

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Dockhead-
Your picture of how electronic "documents" are accepted is somewhat skewed. Just this week the Wall Street Journal was talking about how the State of Israel is driving the young Israelis nuts, because even routine banking transactions will be accepted BY FAX but not allowed by phone apps or emails. And not just the banks, but all sorts of official "paperwork". Co-incidentally I'd been mourning the disappearance of fax in the US, it is so much simpler than the "How do you spell that email?" and "then print out the thing after you've kept checking to see if it arrived" dance.

But emails pass through servers, and servers keep log files, so emails CAN be authenticated to some extent. The same way that businesses preferred to keep using Telex after fax came around, because Telex kept a central log file. As least fax maachines keep time stamps, which can be authenticated at the telco's.

Plain email documents, that exist only on private servers? ROFLMAO. Yes, on "new" computers there are often invisible streams on every file that say who and when it was last accesses, created, etc. But that's not universal, and it can be tampered with--easily. As an evidentiary matter...that's going to mean an expensive forensics argument in many cases. Leading only to ambiguous results in many others. Ask anyone who is seriously into the IT admin side, or who has dealt with file recovery and knows what "streams" on journaling file systems (like Unix, OS/2 and NT) are.
It is *not* at all secured or untamperable. A document that does not have an encrypted digital signature attached to it, should easily be shredded (figuratively) by the opposition. Which is why the federal laws accept digital signatures ONLY when they meet specific standards that make reasonable assurance of authentication.
Which most folks still don't use, have, or understand.

Integrating that into an online log? Possible. Might be there in some commercial products. I think you'd have to poll some navies and commercial fleets to find out what's really out there, or why it isn't.

A long time ago, when the FBI gave public tours of their building and labs, they used to say that the hardest writing to tamper with was...PENCIL, NOT INK. Apparently every ink could be either bleached or solvent released. (At least back then. Now some can even be removed by heat.) Where the graphite "lead" from a pencil gets embedded into paper fibers, and can always be brought back by x-ray viewing, and visible tearing of the paper surface if erasing was tried.

And if you keep your log in pencil, it can't run when wet, either.

Forensics, on or off the computer, can be more subtle than CIS.(G)

I'm sorry, but you're really confused on the legal issues.


Secure documents, which can't be tampered with, and documents which can simply be authenticated, are two completely different things. It's like comparing a paper handwritten note, with a document signed in front of a European notary (where the documents themselves are recorded, unlike what our notaries do).


Courts do not demand notary recorded documents, in order to consider a writing of some kind, as evidence. Same thing with electronic documents and emails. If you get into a legal situation, and your case depends on evidence presented in the form of a document, of course you would love to have a notarized and recorded document for that -- it's much harder for the other side to challenge.



Likewise with electronic documents and correspondence -- you would love to have a digitally signed and escrowed copy of that email, but just because what you've got is an ordinary email doesn't mean it can't be used as evidence.



A note in your paper log can be falsified like any writing. Same thing with an email. If someone accuses you of faking your log, then your lawyer will hire an expert to analyze the handwriting and the ink and paper itself, and will give testimony. The judge (or jury) will listen to this and consider whether it sounds persuasive or not, weighing that against whatever evidence the other side presents that your log is fake.

Exactly the same thing happens every day in the courts, with simple emails. Every simple email leaves a trail of stuff on your own computer and in the various servers it passes through. If someone accuses you of faking an email which you have presented in court as evidence, then there is the same kind of battle of experts you would have with a piece of paper. Only, there is often quite a lot more substance to the proof, where emails are concerned, compared to paper. Your lawyer will take your hard drive and be prepared to authenticate emails you intend to introduce into evidence, just like he would prepare the authentic your your paper records. With both types of documents you may also have the issue of hearsay. But this is bread and butter everyday stuff of courts and lawyers.



The courts are doing this every day, and emails and electronic documents are just as good, or actually better evidence, than any piece of unnotarized paper. The courts used to struggle with this, back in the '80s or '90's, but since at least the year 2000, nearly all business correspondence is carried out without any paper involved, so the courts now deal with emails as evidence every day. Not authenticated digitally signed emails -- which are still a tiny fraction of all business correspondence -- but absolutely ordinary emails sent through private servers or commercial providers.



This is the legal situation, explained to you by a lawyer. If you want to make up something on your own, and believe that instead, then be my guest.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by WingRyder

How does all this pan out when you’ve got a 3d world “official” onboard, requesting to see your logbook? I assume he’s gonna be expecting a dog-eared old notebook, and not some fancy computer screen... just curious.

I don't have direct knowledge, as I don't sail anywhere within 5000 miles of any third world country. Where I sail, business and government is already virtually or entirely paperless, and is rapidly going cashless. The former Soviet republic of Estonia, one of my favorite places in the world, is probably the world leader in this. Estonia now has now fully implemented digital citizenship and e-government. I believe they have now entirely eliminated paper in absolutely all interactions with state and local government. Other countries up here are not far behind.





I've never been asked for my log, not ever in 40 years of sailing, but I am quite sure, that any officials in this part of the world would be very happy with the kind of extremely detailed information which is contained in the Konni logbook records I have, and would be much less impressed with a "dog-eared" paper log.

[conachair]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

very happy with the kind of extremely detailed information which is contained in the Konni logbook records I have,

Out of interest what data gets logged in your konni plugin?

I've not that much yet but more on the way > lat/long, SOG,COG & barometer. Soon to follow windspeed/direction, STW (if nasa actually start selling their new electromagnetic log) plus engine revs , the logbook auto inputs engine started/stopped based on engine revs and you can send a fuel used XDR sentence as well.

Not sure if that version is on the normal download page though.

This is one area where a Rasp Pi/SigK outperforms systems costing thousands, stick a little esp8266 board and sensor wherever you want and send data over wifi to signalk on the Pi then do what you want with it, auto save to a database for plotting & make whatever nmea 0183 sentences you want for the likes of the logbook/dashboard. I convert engine temperature into air temperature so it can be seen on the dashboard in opencpn without having to change screens.

(Been asked for logbook once in Thames estuary after border control showed some interest during the olympics. Didn't bat any eyelid that it was a ringbound brazilian kids schoolbook )

[LoudMusic]

I’ve had really good results with the Android voice recognition, personally. But many of the people I know, my wife included, don’t fare so well. For me it can even work well in a noisy bar. I’ve placed my phone on the table and spoke in a normal voice and it wrote everything I said into the Keep app.

I’m very much interested in digital logs as well. I don’t want to be restricted to someone’s app though. We may create a text template in google docs or sheets that can easily be ported to Microsoft or other document processor just to ensure longevity.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by conachair

Out of interest what data gets logged in your konni plugin?

I've not that much yet but more on the way > lat/long, SOG,COG & barometer. Soon to follow windspeed/direction, STW (if nasa actually start selling their new electromagnetic log) plus engine revs , the logbook auto inputs engine started/stopped based on engine revs and you can send a fuel used XDR sentence as well.

Not sure if that version is on the normal download page though.

This is one area where a Rasp Pi/SigK outperforms systems costing thousands, stick a little esp8266 board and sensor wherever you want and send data over wifi to signalk on the Pi then do what you want with it, auto save to a database for plotting & make whatever nmea 0183 sentences you want for the likes of the logbook/dashboard. I convert engine temperature into air temperature so it can be seen on the dashboard in opencpn without having to change screens.

(Been asked for logbook once in Thames estuary after border control showed some interest during the olympics. Didn't bat any eyelid that it was a ringbound brazilian kids schoolbook )

The logbook plugin has very extensive capabilities, and I use only part of them. There are three tabs -- Navigation, Metero, Motor/Sails.


I have mine set up so that:



Navigation logs Route, date time, distance, distance total, position, cog, heading, sog, stw, depth.


Meteo logs water temp, air temp, air pressure, twa, tws, awa, aws (min, avg, max)


Motor/Sails doesn't do anything.


The plugin can be almost infinitely customized with your own layouts and graphics. I haven't (of course) found time to do anything like that and just use it in its out of the box form.





It records a great wealth of data. Only thing which needs to be added to it is the narrative part.


You could just do a separate narrative log, dictating it somehow.


Or what would be really nice would be to enhance the logbook plugin so that you could dictate the remarks

[conachair]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I have mine set up so that:
......

Sounds pretty comprehensive.

Though TBH, fantastic as the logbook is, spotting trends or anomalies with numbers on their own compared to plotting the data is a bit like looking through a keyhole compared to standing in a room with all the lights on

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by conachair

Sounds pretty comprehensive.

Though TBH, fantastic as the logbook is, spotting trends or anomalies with numbers on their own compared to plotting the data is a bit like looking through a keyhole compared to standing in a room with all the lights on

Agree completely.



Some plotting would be absolutely fantastic. As far as I know, the logbook might even be capable of it.

[conachair]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Some plotting would be absolutely fantastic. As far as I know, the logbook might even be capable of it.

Does it? Not heard of that.

You should be able to do it on a windows machine but would need a chunk of node-red or python or something to get at the numbers and send the data to a database like influxDB. This is just one of the multitude of ways that signalk is light years ahead of nmea, install a plugin and click activate

Might have a play on the laptop though just to see if it would work, could be useful for peeps running windows machines. Would mean installing node-red & influxDB but that's no big deal.

[conachair]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Some plotting would be absolutely fantastic.

Well that was easy!!!!!! Below is just some random sample data getting sent from signalk on a rasp pi.

So briefly...
All on a win10 laptop.
NMEA0183 goes to opencpn, opencpn sends it out to a UDP port, node-red reads the NMEA from the UDP port and strips out the number you want, node-red sends it to influxDB, chronograf makes the graph, it's web based and pretty easy to configure pretty plots. Website says influx/chronograf are experimental on windows but they seemed to install and run OK.

Of course us Rasp Pi/Openplotter people don't need to jump through these little hoops but for you poor lot stuck with just nmea without signalk this might be , as they say over in blighty, a right result!!



And this is what your barometer data could look like >