Voice Recognition for Log?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by conachair

Well that was easy!!!!!! Below is just some random sample data getting sent from signalk on a rasp pi.

So briefly...
All on a win10 laptop.
NMEA0183 goes to opencpn, opencpn sends it out to a UDP port, node-red reads the NMEA from the UDP port and strips out the number you want, node-red sends it to influxDB, chronograf makes the graph, it's web based and pretty easy to configure pretty plots. Website says influx/chronograf are experimental on windows but they seemed to install and run OK.

Of course us Rasp Pi/Openplotter people don't need to jump through these little hoops but for you poor lot stuck with just nmea without signalk this might be , as they say over in blighty, a right result!!

You are a wizz!!

[hellosailor]

Dockhead-
I don't disagree with you as to what some courts may or may not be familiar with. What I'm getting at, is that outside of the courts, in the world of ordinary business and ordinary people, there is still great confusion over what is or isn't legally required, or allowed, or secure. And as a practical matter, if you are playing for big bucks then sure, computer forensics exists. Big bucks: Easy to burn through a lot of money and subpeonas getting experts and server logs. Beyond the ken of the ordinary folks.
Should it be this way? No, of course not. Simple forensics was never simple and cheap, or commonly understood, even when Itek(?) was examining the JFK assassination footage.
Certainly, you can leave gaps in a bound log book and go back later to fill then in or change them. Keep the same pencil or pen around so the ink matches, and it is even better. But a simple, neatly kept log, without gaps, makes those kind of questions unlikely from the start. With computer files...OK, the admiralty court enquiring into why the RMS Titanic t-boned the USS Ronald Reagan is going to have no problem with electronic files. A less august lower court hearing a matter of a fishing boat and a local recreational sailor? Might not be so familiar with technology.
If you're telling me that essentially "all" the courts, here, in Croatia, in wherever, have come up the learning curve and are as familiar and trusting with digital files as they are with "Show us you papers"....then things have come a long way in recent years.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Dockhead-
I don't disagree with you as to what some courts may or may not be familiar with. What I'm getting at, is that outside of the courts, in the world of ordinary business and ordinary people, there is still great confusion over what is or isn't legally required, or allowed, or secure. And as a practical matter, if you are playing for big bucks then sure, computer forensics exists. Big bucks: Easy to burn through a lot of money and subpeonas getting experts and server logs. Beyond the ken of the ordinary folks.
Should it be this way? No, of course not. Simple forensics was never simple and cheap, or commonly understood, even when Itek(?) was examining the JFK assassination footage.
Certainly, you can leave gaps in a bound log book and go back later to fill then in or change them. Keep the same pencil or pen around so the ink matches, and it is even better. But a simple, neatly kept log, without gaps, makes those kind of questions unlikely from the start. With computer files...OK, the admiralty court enquiring into why the RMS Titanic t-boned the USS Ronald Reagan is going to have no problem with electronic files. A less august lower court hearing a matter of a fishing boat and a local recreational sailor? Might not be so familiar with technology.
If you're telling me that essentially "all" the courts, here, in Croatia, in wherever, have come up the learning curve and are as familiar and trusting with digital files as they are with "Show us you papers"....then things have come a long way in recent years.

I don't know about Croatia, but my guess is that anywhere in Europe is going to be ok with electronic documents. Guatemala, Panama -- that is probably a different story. So certainly I can see the advantage of using paper in a place like that, and see why you would want to have a paper log.


As to authenticating a document in court -- you go through the same thing with paper documents, if someone accuses you of faking them. I doubt if there is much difference in cost. And for sure, ALL of the courts at all are dealing with email correspondence and electronic documents.


So if you show an electronic document to an official or LEO -- it's the same thing as showing a paper one. The official or LEO either believes in the authenticity of the document, or not. If the don't believe, and the matter gets to court, then evidence will be given on both sides, if there is any. There is no magic with paper.


I think that an automatically produced log like what Konni produces, would be tremendously impressive, and probably have more initial weight than a paper log, with most officials. The large amount of data involved would make it exceptionally difficult to fake a Konni log book file. Such a file is more like a VDR record.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

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So if you show an electronic document to an official or LEO -- it's the same thing as showing a paper one. The official or LEO either believes in the authenticity of the document, or not. If the don't believe, and the matter gets to court, then evidence will be given on both sides, if there is any. There is no magic with paper.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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This may be a little tangent here, more akin to the "Do you even keep a logbook?, but having one to reference in a "just in case it happens to you" scenario is important.


In April one year I received an unsolicited call from the Coast Guard. "Sir, last November you were impeding the progress of a ship in SF Bay. For doing so, we could give you lots of grief and even confiscate your boat. What do you say?"


I said I'd go check my logbook and call him back.


So, I did, and Sure enough the previous November I had noted that while sailing north in very light winds through a gaggle of anchored ships (SF Bay Anchorage 9) one of the ships I had passed an hour before had raised anchor and was proceeding north, heading right at me! Due to the lack of wind, I had started the engine and dodged the guy. I even wrote the name of the ship in my log. He never gave me five toots either, I so noted.


I had been sailing on SF Bay for 15 years prior, was familiar with the anchorage and traffic and routes. Safely. This incident was so unusual it kinda made me write it down. Passed ship, ship stealthily crept up on me, didn't toot, super quiet, I dodged with plenty of room to spare. I never play chicken.


I called the CG back, read him my log, told him he never did five, passed 100 yards or more.


He said he'd report to his boss and if they felt they needed to pursue the matter would get back to me. They never had to.


The log book helped.


Woulda been waaay easier if I could just have dictated it. Or written this story out for you folks!


And the electronic log from dictation would have time and date stamps, easy to search and find.


But I sure do like re-reading those "way back" in time log books. Great memories.


I'll be interested if this can gain traction, but be a plug&play, c'uz many of us are computer literate but no tech savvy as some of you. I still think of dessert when somebody says RaspberrypI.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

This may be a little tangent here, more akin to the "Do you even keep a logbook?, but having one to reference in a "just in case it happens to you" scenario is important.


In April one year I received an unsolicited call from the Coast Guard. "Sir, last November you were impeding the progress of a ship in SF Bay. For doing so, we could give you lots of grief and even confiscate your boat. What do you say?"


I said I'd go check my logbook and call him back.


So, I did, and Sure enough the previous November I had noted that while sailing north in very light winds through a gaggle of anchored ships (SF Bay Anchorage 9) one of the ships I had passed an hour before had raised anchor and was proceeding north, heading right at me! Due to the lack of wind, I had started the engine and dodged the guy. I even wrote the name of the ship in my log. He never gave me five toots either, I so noted.


I had been sailing on SF Bay for 15 years prior, was familiar with the anchorage and traffic and routes. Safely. This incident was so unusual it kinda made me write it down. Passed ship, ship stealthily crept up on me, didn't toot, super quiet, I dodged with plenty of room to spare. I never play chicken.


I called the CG back, read him my log, told him he never did five, passed 100 yards or more.


He said he'd report to his boss and if they felt they needed to pursue the matter would get back to me. They never had to.


The log book helped.

That's a great story, and entirely relevant.


Inspires me to be more careful with the narrative part of the log.



You are an awesome log-keeper


And your story shows that really good log-keepers, record quite a lot of information, so more in need of anything which will make the process more efficient.

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Woulda been waaay easier if I could just have dictated it. Or written this story out for you folks!


And the electronic log from dictation would have time and date stamps, easy to search and find.


But I sure do like re-reading those "way back" in time log books. Great memories.


I'll be interested if this can gain traction, but be a plug&play, c'uz many of us are computer literate but no tech savvy as some of you. I still think of dessert when somebody says RaspberrypI.

I am guessing that the Konni plugin could have a dictation module added to it. Don't know if there are any decent open source voice recognition modules out there.


Otherwise, we could just dictate the narrative into any device with any app which will do it, and merge the text later.

[Viking Sailor]

Why dictation?


Why not generate an audio file. File name encoding the date and time of file creation. OpenCPN would automatically enter the file name into the log. Hot keys to start and stop the recording. Click-on log entry to playback. .etc.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Viking Sailor

Why dictation?


Why not generate an audio file. File name encoding the date and time of file creation. OpenCPN would automatically enter the file name into the log. Hot keys to start and stop the recording. Click-on log entry to playback. .etc.

Yes, that's certainly one way to do it.


Audio files are a lot harder to go back through and refer to, if you need to, so that would not be my preferred way. I do refer to my log not rarely, for different purposes, so I really need text.



But if your purpose is to simply record for the purpose of having proof, it's an excellent way to do it.

[David M]

One of the ideas of a log is that information entered now cannot be altered later. I would imagine that most authorities are going to take with more a credibility a log written in ink with bound and pre-numbered pages than a log entered electronically, that could have been altered later.

An electronic log would be fine just for personal use. I would though never assume that will be accepted by the authorities.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by David M

One of the ideas of a log is that information entered now cannot be altered later. I would imagine that most authorities are going to take with more a credibility a log written in ink with bound and pre-numbered pages than a log entered electronically, that could have been altered later.

An electronic log would be fine just for personal use. I would though never assume that will be accepted by the authorities.

It depends on the authority, of course, but I would guess that you would have to go to a really backwards third world country to find some authority which considers ink on paper to be more "credible", than a well-kept electronic log. It is a lot easier to falsify ink on numbered pages, than an electronic document with metadata.



We will soon be in the third decade (!) of the 21st century! The world will soon be entirely paperless.

[hellosailor]

Dockhead, it isn't just the third world.

Consider, if you are in the first world or north america. You go to a newsstand (which probably means you are in an airport, I think the rest have all closed) or a convenience store and you give the clerk a $20 bill for a newspaper or candy bar. Maybe they hold it up to the light, maybe they strike a special marking pen over it...they're checking for counterfeits. This is something they have faith in, because they know how to do it and they do it dozens of times a day. Of course they are happily ignorant of the fact that there's really not much they can REALLY do to spot counterfeits...a few minutes on the phone with the Secret Service will convince any merchant never to accept cash larger than five or ten dollar bills again, anyway. BUT THEY ARE HAPPY, it is what they do every day.
Now, substitute someone who checks documents and logs. Tell them "Oh here, you can see it on my cell phone". Uh, no. Even if they can see it, the average street-level bureaucrat has absolutely no idea of how to verify a digital document. Many years ago, when digital photos were a new thing, there was a major argument (even in your courts!) that unless a photograph was a Polaroid, it should probably be disallowed, because there was no way to prove it hadn't been manipulated. And if you follow the celebrity lawsuits over photoshopped pictures, or you've had any real familiarity with digital documents...
When someone tells anyone in the "printing" business that they'll need it in writing, the only question is, what color would you like? Because even "security" paper is so easy to counterfeit. Digital documents? Yeah, I know, forensics. Data trails. All well and good--but the guy behind the counter who wants to SEE IT IN WRITING would often be a fool to accept just some stuff you could show him on a monitor, without being able to do some "scratch n sniff" testing on the device providing the files.
That's just the way it is, and the reason why digital *certificates* are so important. Even while they have been so badly ignored for so many years. Certificates can be checked--if you teach people how--in under a minute. No certificate? No signature? Then whatever the file is, isn't worth the paper it wasn't printed on. Forensics just ain't gonna happen at the front desk.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Dockhead, it isn't just the third world.

Consider, if you are in the first world or north america. You go to a newsstand (which probably means you are in an airport, I think the rest have all closed) or a convenience store and you give the clerk a $20 bill for a newspaper or candy bar. Maybe they hold it up to the light, maybe they strike a special marking pen over it...they're checking for counterfeits. This is something they have faith in, because they know how to do it and they do it dozens of times a day. Of course they are happily ignorant of the fact that there's really not much they can REALLY do to spot counterfeits...a few minutes on the phone with the Secret Service will convince any merchant never to accept cash larger than five or ten dollar bills again, anyway. BUT THEY ARE HAPPY, it is what they do every day.
Now, substitute someone who checks documents and logs. Tell them "Oh here, you can see it on my cell phone". Uh, no. Even if they can see it, the average street-level bureaucrat has absolutely no idea of how to verify a digital document. Many years ago, when digital photos were a new thing, there was a major argument (even in your courts!) that unless a photograph was a Polaroid, it should probably be disallowed, because there was no way to prove it hadn't been manipulated. And if you follow the celebrity lawsuits over photoshopped pictures, or you've had any real familiarity with digital documents...
When someone tells anyone in the "printing" business that they'll need it in writing, the only question is, what color would you like? Because even "security" paper is so easy to counterfeit. Digital documents? Yeah, I know, forensics. Data trails. All well and good--but the guy behind the counter who wants to SEE IT IN WRITING would often be a fool to accept just some stuff you could show him on a monitor, without being able to do some "scratch n sniff" testing on the device providing the files.
That's just the way it is, and the reason why digital *certificates* are so important. Even while they have been so badly ignored for so many years. Certificates can be checked--if you teach people how--in under a minute. No certificate? No signature? Then whatever the file is, isn't worth the paper it wasn't printed on. Forensics just ain't gonna happen at the front desk.

Your point being that a written document gives a prima facia impression of authenticity -- which is a separate issue from actual legal authentication in case of a legal dispute. I think that's an absolutely fair point.


However, this is also a moving target. If you are retired and no longer in the middle of the economy, you may not be aware of how fast the world is changing and moving away from paper having any role at all in society. You talk about cash, but cash will probably disappear in a few years. It's already illegal to use cash for transactions above €1000 in France, and Sweden is now debating a complete ban on cash and ceasing issuing any cash money at all. I stopped using cash myself more than a year ago -- I simply never have any cash on my person. I use a contactless card or mobile pay for absolutely everything now, and that is being the norm, at least in Northern Europe.


Paper tickets disappeared for airlines in Europe a couple of years ago. For the moment you can still get a paper boarding pass if you want it, but some airlines charge you extra. I guess 90% of air passengers in Europe use boarding passes which are nothing but electronic images on their smartphones.


Other than perhaps in the third world, and perhaps when dealing with some old people who haven't really adapted to the modern world, I really don't think you will find anyone who has any problem with a well-kept electronic log, ESPECIALLY not one which has an automatically created element like what you get with Konni Log. Ships after all have VDR's, which are electronic. You can fake a VDR log but it would be hellishly difficult, so you can believe that the authorities give great weight to these electronic documents. Same thing with an OpenCPN Konni Log file -- it is POSSIBLE to fake it, but that would be so difficult and so time consuming, that I would not expect any problem even with Joe Watercop giving it respect on a prima facia basis, and probably a lot more respect than a 20th century artifact like a pen and ink log, which is vastly easier to fake.

[Macblaze]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

However, this is also a moving target. If you are retired and no longer in the middle of the economy, you may not be aware of how fast the world is changing and moving away from paper having any role at all in society. You talk about cash, but cash will probably disappear in a few years. It's already illegal to use cash for transactions above €1000 in France, and Sweden is now debating a complete ban on cash and ceasing issuing any cash money at all. I stopped using cash myself more than a year ago -- I simply never have any cash on my person. I use a contactless card or mobile pay for absolutely everything now, and that is being the norm, at least in Northern Europe.

Have you been to the U.S.? I was once in the Apple store in NYC and there were 50 people lined up at the till to pay cash when you could go to any employee and pay with a card in literally seconds. We were discussing it just recently and someone posited it was because they have to have their pants stuffed full of cash to tip everyone and their dog (I would insult sooooo many people...). I think its simply a matter of cultural distrust of things electronic relating to capitalism and freedom and the American way etc.

It may be you are having trouble convincing people of your argument because Americans—oddly enough—are reluctant about technology about some things. It's a theory anyway.

Note: this is not a diss or judgement on Americans—just an observation that however similar, western cultures to vary widely.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Macblaze

Have you been to the U.S.? I was once in the Apple store in NYC and there were 50 people lined up at the till to pay cash when you could go to any employee and pay with a card in literally seconds. We were discussing it just recently and someone posited it was because they have to have their pants stuffed full of cash to tip everyone and their dog (I would insult sooooo many people...). I think its simply a matter of cultural distrust of things electronic relating to capitalism and freedom and the American way etc.

It may be you are having trouble convincing people of your argument because Americans—oddly enough—are reluctant about technology about some things. It's a theory anyway.

Note: this is not a diss or judgement on Americans—just an observation that however similar, western cultures to vary widely.

The U.S. is definitely behind Europe in this. Whether it is come kind of "cultural distrust" or just plain backwardness, is debatable.



But it doesn't matter -- cash is on the way out. I'm not sure it's such a good thing, actually -- a cashless society is a far more tightly controlled society. But good or bad, it's coming fast, like the end of paper in every other aspect of our lives.

[hellosailor]

Dockhead-
First, bear in mind that everywhere, not just in the US but perhaps especially here, politicians have cash stuffed under their mattresses. It is very convenient for untraceable payoffs, case in point our poor Mr. Trump's check to Mr. Cohen was it? that was just reprinted in the Nooze.
So at least here, no politician is going to "ban" cash. It is too dear to them. And of course, our vast mob economy, off-the-books employers, drugs, all of that depends on cash. That's a tremendous apple cart to upset.

"However, this is also a moving target."
At a tortoise's pace.
" You talk about cash, but cash will probably disappear in a few years."
Nah. 35?ish years ago, my friend (a doctor still in private practice) used to always pay in cash when we ate out. Cash income, cash expense, no one to track him or it.
And when the nice folks from the IRS decided to check my taxes (if you're self-employed, as I was at the time, you can expect that to happen once every 25 years or so) the agent couldn't believe me when I said I don't use cash. Maybe $20 a month for the barber (another industry that prefers cash and has peculiar "employment" options) and another $30 at the greengrocer, yet another group that took no credit cards, he still couldn't believe it. I told him "here's the bank, have a good time" because, yes, I was that sure there was nothing to find.
So I'm familiar with the cashless economy. No matter how I was employed, it was easier to carry plastic and not have to make cash withdrawls, not have to worry about losing cash or being mugged...just easier to use plastic.
Now, if I'd had cash income that was worth hiding (as opposed to declaring it and being able to take expenses and make retirement contributions and show a higher income for credit rating, etc.) I might very well have done like my friend the doctor, and pushed cash.
Today the numbers are that something like 74% of all US customers on the street are using credit cards exclusively--if you only take cash or checks, you lose 74% of the potential customers right off the top. Yes, I'm aware of that.

Still, if you have a housecleaner? If you want to tip the car mechanic or the mailman? Yeah, people find and use cash, still.

If you want to rent a car or reserve a hotel room, both want credit cards--or a very generous cash deposit "just in case". That's been the same for at least 30-40 years, too.

"It's already illegal to use cash for transactions above €1000 in France, and Sweden is now debating a complete ban on cash and ceasing issuing any cash money at all."
Didn't know about France but Sweden has made the business news here in the US over that. There are US stores that also say "No cash" and that's made the nooze and gotten some legal attention. The problem here being, since cash is legal tender for all debts, once I have offered you legal tender in payment for my purchase, if you refuse to take it, well then...I tried to pay. You refused my payment. OK, have a nice day?
And there's perhaps precedent to support that. On the New Jersey Turnpike they used to have boxes of envelopes at the toll booths. If the booth was unmanned and you had no change (honor system) you could just take an envelope,prepaid I think, and mail in your dime!

We are behind on contactless cards and mobile payment in the US, and I suspect that's by intent from the credit card processing groups. I've had so many offers for smartphone and contactless and software of the month that comes and goes...I don't want to know. If it won't work "everywhere"...then I'll just keep using plastic.

Although now, with so much datamining and tracking, I have to admit cash is looking very much more attractive again.

"Paper tickets disappeared for airlines in Europe a couple of years ago."
I think a paper ticket cost an extra $25 as long as a decade ago here. Haven't used one in at least that long, for that reason alone.
I still print out the electronic boarding pass, because the last thing I need is to find some phone glitch preventing me from showing it.

I don't know what the commercial/professional logs are doing, but I would expect that software targeted for the small craft mass market is going to be more slapdash. And it isn't just there. Maybe 15 years ago, our fairly old school DMV decided that while we were changing an owner and correcting an error (diesel, not petrol) on the boat registration, that the long-standing registration HAD TO BE WRONG because it didn't have enough numbers in the HIN. Uh, no, that's the HIN, that's the same one that's on the boat, that's what it always has been...but for this office, this clerk, this supervisor, it wasn't long enough. They said "go take a picture or make a tracing and bring it back".
On our way out I said to my friend "Picture, huh? They never heard of PhotoShop?" And let's just say, the problem was solved. Incidentally, digital photos can be "unwatermarked" and tampered with in other common ways now, as well. Digital documents? After all these years, MOST Windows NT users (who no longer are even aware they are using NT) still don't know it is a journaling file system, and there are streams attached to file that leave all kinds of fingerprints. But, if you've known about those...there are simple tools to change them, and "authenticate" as you please--unless you have to worry about a long chain of trust in multiple hands.
If you keep up with the IT trade papers, or the regular CERT publications on computer security, you'll have far less faith in security. Right now, most of the security industry (and the 3-letter federal agencies) are worried that the entire US power grid (among others) is going to go down, down hard, because hacking is so good and security is so bad. They're fairly certain that Russia already took down a major part of the Ukranian(?) grid a while back. All it takes are some dedicated people, the security is always getting bypassed in clever new ways.
In medieval times, kings learned to build impregnable castles. Other kings learned how to undermine castle walls. Oops.
Paper ain't dead yet. And, like the slide rule in my nav kit, it never runs out of batteries.(G)

[Macblaze]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Still, if you have a housecleaner? If you want to tip the car mechanic or the mailman? Yeah, people find and use cash, still.

Tip the mailman??? That's the sort of thing that got us talking about it the other day. Honest to god I have tipped waitstaff, taxi drivers, pizza delivery guys and very occasionally a hair stylist... That's it.

The U.S is VERY cash-centric. A couple of hundred miles north and you will find an entire generation or two of people who rarely have cash in their pocket. Even the toll bridges are automatic these days.

As for cyber security, well its no different than counterfeiting. The authorities come up with a foolproof system and the counterfeiters make their way around it. Wash and repeat. You should see the ridiculous thing that passes for $20 or $50 bill in Canada. Etransactions are pretty much the same... it gets "foolproof" and then it gets "fooled."