Alternative Protection Ideas

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by FrankZ

This thread started out on a tenuous premise. This forum is about boats and cruising. This one needs to get back on that topic or it will be closed.

I agree Frank.

Now this post does show how a cruiser needs to be grounded in reality if they wish for a successful cruise.

A few years ago the Australian Customs (especially in Bundaberg) made some outrageous mistakes making life difficult for cruisers.

One guy (I think an American, but that doesn't matter) sailed into Bundaberg and had his boat taken apart piece by piece by Customs.

The story came out how horrible Customs was in this incident.

But then a few months later it was revealed this cruiser was on one of those Watch Lists.
I did a bit of Google searching and blog/forum searches and found this guy had been in 'trouble' in virtually every port he had visited in the world.

His smart arse attitude to officials of all types just was like the attitude of Xen. Not allowing officials in uniform to step onto his boat until they showed and ID card, or other such ideas of correct procedure in this guys mind.

One thing we have learned is be an ass to an official and they will bind you up with rules and procedures till they win. And win they will!
Some countries it might just be a delay, others extra payments, other countries you will have to pay bribes etc.

This guys attitude stank and the smell began to follow him as one small Pacific country put him on an international Watch List.


Yes it might be fun to demonstrate one profound love of 'rights' in ones own country. You will find cruising is about rights too: The rights of a sovereign country to reject whomever they like, whenever they like with no recourse to appeal.

One thing that many poorer or smaller countries have, and often its the only thing they have, is their own sovereignty. They absolutely feel insulted when richer people come and appear to dismiss their laws, no matter how antiquated or involved those laws may be, as its felt as an insult to their sovereignty. Remember, many countries till just a few years ago were colonies of European countries, or have Extrateritorality forced upon them.

Cruising for us is partially about visiting new countries and finding out about their people. When we roll up to their door in our boat, its not like getting off a plane for a 2 week resort holiday, its allowing a foreign flagged vessel in, whether 11 meters or 111 meters, so we enter with cap in hand, a smile on our faces, and we say Yes Sir! We comply, we make them a tea of coffee and we always have home cooked cookies on the table. Consequently we have never had much problem


Mark

[Heinous]

Originally Posted by mintyspilot

Hmm.... I'm surprised they do not outlaw teeth in case you bite someone.

Longbows and swords seem to be missing from the list.

Most of the contraband lists I have read (all of three, lol) seem to omit swords, but I think you would have to use a short one. My 3 foot katana might be a little to long to wield with all the lines and stays, and certainly too long to use in the cabin.

[sww914]

If your goal is to flex you muscles with local authorities in other countries while wielding guns, you can do that once.
If your goal is to find a place where you can do whatever you want with whatever guns you can get, I would recommend some african countries, afghanistan, iraq, You know, those nice places where everyone on the streets has a gun. You could probably immigrate to israel if you have a jewish grandmother, join a kibbutz and carry an m-16 everywhere.
If you goal is to explore the world, you won't be doing it with a gun most places, whether you recognize their authority or not. Possession is 10/10ths of the law when it comes to authority unless you're truly a big shot. I'm a small shot.

[mintyspilot]

Originally Posted by Xen

who are "they",Do "they" dictate how you run your life,protect yourself or handle your affairs?

Please don't be so infantile. "They" are the appointed border agnets of the sovreign country that you (a foreigner) want entry to. The world is not your playground to do as you please.

Originally Posted by Xen

Which is the whole reason I want to leave land altogether. Some group of random people view themselves as legitimate or have some "divine" right, more so than the rest of us. I am just not buying it.

Hello... reality calling Xen, reality calling Xen, come in Xen....

Ever hear of democracy? Of elected governments? "Divine right" has nothing to do with this.

Originally Posted by Xen

Does coercion equal authority? It all boils down to who has the most guns and people to operate them.

I think that getting out in the world would very, very good for you. Seriously!

Originally Posted by Xen

All I want to know is, if I have to declare my weapons to a false authority just to get some fuel and pasta?

Yes you do.

It doesn't matter WHY you are going into a port. That's what everyone has been telling you. You must follow the local laws whether you like them or not.

Here in the UK, possession of a firearm is a 5 year mandatory sentence. Sail into the UK with undeclared firearms and you are going to jail.

[mintyspilot]

Originally Posted by FrankZ

This thread started out on a tenuous premise. This forum is about boats and cruising. This one needs to get back on that topic or it will be closed.

Surely this *is* about boats and cruising and I think it is covering a very important topic - that you cannot take your own laws with you wherever you go. Nor can you expect your idea of "what is right" to be accepted in other cultures.

I accept that some people may never leave their home waters, but cruising, if it is about anything, is about travel and that must include travel abroad to other countries whose ideas may seem strange to the traveller.

I would have thought that establishing that principle was terribly important for anyone wishing to cruise internationally.

[sailorboy1]

You know, sometimes its the cruisers I'm starting to be scared of. So many of US are starting to sound scarier that priates etc. I'm not far from being able to see the day that you anchor and dingy over to your new neighbor to say hi, just to get a face full of "something" as they defend themselves. Then there is the "I hate everyone and no one can tell me what to do" sailors, who need to find a cave in the mountains instead of a boat. And the "they can not stop me from entering" and the "they can not charge me a fee" people, just who do they think they are to try to tell a country what it can do?

Seems there are some that think their "rights" allow them to do anything. Without ever knowing that rights are not theirs unless granted overall by a given society.

In the end I want to cruise to be able to get away from the above people! (the sailing connection for the post)

[Xen]

Originally Posted by Don Lucas

You know, sometimes its the cruisers I'm starting to be scared of. So many of US are starting to sound scarier that priates etc. I'm not far from being able to see the day that you anchor and dingy over to your new neighbor to say hi, just to get a face full of "something" as they defend themselves. Then there is the "I hate everyone and no one can tell me what to do" sailors, who need to find a cave in the mountains instead of a boat. And the "they can not stop me from entering" and the "they can not charge me a fee" people, just who do they think they are to try to tell a country what it can do?

Seems there are some that think their "rights" allow them to do anything. Without ever knowing that rights are not theirs unless granted overall by a given society.

In the end I want to cruise to be able to get away from the above people! (the sailing connection for the post)

So so very wrong kinda sad really, that so many have the mentality of a slave. Rights are not given at the behest of a government. Rights are ascribed by birth. You speak of country as if it a living soul,it is not. Country is a dead fiction,if you are subject to a dead fiction then...

Privileges and rights are the exact opposite.
I get plenty of court time so I am not here to convince you of anything or act like an internet tough guy. My point and purpose was/is to figure out the logic. I wonder when humans lost their personal sovereignty. One thing is always going to be true, if you don't know your rights, you have none.I practice law so I always end up getting into debates with people that don't truly like to argue, or are not cognizant in the law.
Civil Law is one thing and one thing only, it revolves around corpus delicti , for obvious reasons.

[Xen]

Originally Posted by mintyspilot

Please don't be so infantile. "They" are the appointed border agnets of the sovreign country that you (a foreigner) want entry to. The world is not your playground to do as you please.


Hello... reality calling Xen, reality calling Xen, come in Xen....

Ever hear of democracy? Of elected governments? "Divine right" has nothing to do with this.


I think that getting out in the world would very, very good for you. Seriously!



Yes you do.

It doesn't matter WHY you are going into a port. That's what everyone has been telling you. You must follow the local laws whether you like them or not.

Here in the UK, possession of a firearm is a 5 year mandatory sentence. Sail into the UK with undeclared firearms and you are going to jail.

Truly sad to see an englishman saying such things.
First off democracy is the gateway drug for socialism,fascism,and corporatocracy.
Secondly what is reality? Red to me maybe me orange for you so reality is perceived and not universal.
Infantile is again the exact opposite of what I am, blind submission is indeed infantile by its definition. "Do as you are told" says the parent figure. Yes says the infant. catch my meaning.
Coercion is what all this boils down too,so whats the issue? Did I lie to you, i think not.
Not even 20 years has passed and you already have disdain for firearms in the UK, this is your heritage cousin as it is ours. Very sad indeed.
As far as sailing into England with my arms and getting 5 years that is HIGHLY unlikely, maybe in a country that doesn't have roman law at its core. Like say..... well I cannot think of any. Maybe asia? yea asia/russia.
At any rate understand what jurisdiction means then get back to me.England would be the last place I would fear the law, lol.

[Xen]

I am done with this topic. It is pointless to argue with someone that is not cognizant of law and expect a rational outcome.

[mintyspilot]

Originally Posted by Xen

I am done with this topic. It is pointless to argue with someone that is not cognizant of law and expect a rational outcome.

Yes. I think you will find that out when you go abroad. Good luck to you.

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by Don Lucas

. I'm not far from being able to see the day that you anchor and dingy over to your new neighbor to say hi, just to get a face full of "something" as they defend themselves.

Don,

There have been a number of times that after a few beers I lose my way in the dink getting back home and we drive past, and nearly climb aboard heaps of other boats.

Thats why we now have the christmas tree lights on. So I can find out boat.

So, if you consider some cruiser with a skin full of grog trying to find his 40 foot production boat, white hull, white uppers, blue sail covers, and swim platform, the poor drunk sucker could walk onto half a dozen boats in the anchorage and get himself blown away by someone, as you say, who is more dangerous than the pirates they are meant to fear.

Moral of the story: If you drink beer wear a bullet proof vest for the dink ride home!


mark

[Xen]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Don,

There have been a number of times that after a few beers I lose my way in the dink getting back home and we drive past, and nearly climb aboard heaps of other boats.

Thats why we now have the christmas tree lights on. So I can find out boat.

So, if you consider some cruiser with a skin full of grog trying to find his 40 foot production boat, white hull, white uppers, blue sail covers, and swim platform, the poor drunk sucker could walk onto half a dozen boats in the anchorage and get himself blown away by someone, as you say, who is more dangerous than the pirates they are meant to fear.

Moral of the story: If you drink beer wear a bullet proof vest for the dink ride home!


mark

So you have never had any problems while sailing? Honestly I like to shot its fun, but if the danger is so low that the hassle of it all outweighs the purpose then I wouldn't have a problem with just having a few knives.I am going from the perspective of a few people and not from personal experience. So I am clueless as to how often pirates or general crooks attack or whatnot.The intent was really to find out and it turned into some sort of sidestepped legal debate.
Also think its wise to do the xmas light deal,maybe I am too accustom to defending my home on land. I know I am not boarded at all while in local waters unless I request it. Maybe it is different on the international waters. Is it common practice to board other peoples boats? I don't want to be rude or seem aggressive if someone means me no harm. What is proper etiquette on open water I am not familiar.

[osirissail]

Originally Posted by Xen

. . . All I want to know is, if I have to declare my weapons to a false authority just to get some fuel and pasta?

Simply anwered - YES! If you wish to set a foot onto their land/country you must check-in first and pay the fees, if any. The officials will ask or will have a question on the check-in form asking if you have any firearms on board your vessel. If you answer falsely it is highly unlikely anybody will actually inspect your vessel - unless - your attitude and reaction to the official is confrontational in which case they have the legal right to board and tear apart your boat looking for "illegal" or undeclared items.
- - This just happened to a good friend of mine who was checking into French Polynesia and during the "interview/check-in" process answered hesitantly or non-consistently due to language translation difficulties. They were then thoroughly searched and some undeclared "smoking" material found. That got them into deep "doo-doo."
- - If you choose to visit/stop at certain islands in the Caribbean (and probably other places in the world) simple possession of a firearm, declared or undeclared is a crime so in these place you must lie if you have firearms on board. This has been discussed in previous threads.
- - Firearms are not necessary only guns and rifles but also can in certain countries include normal "pistol-type" flare guns.
- - This thread started with a rather silly premise of using gasoline filled vessels as a defensive weapon which is both obviously ridiculous and also an obvious "foot in the door" to start another "firearms on board" thread. There have been dozens if not hundreds of the same subject threads on every cruising/sailing forum going back years. Nothing new has ever surfaced on the subject and the consensus is if you do "carry" you can expect to be hassled and will incur additional complications in your journey. Whether these additional complications are worthwhile to you is totally a personal decision. The most simple solution to having the need to carry weapons to defend yourself is to simply stay away from known problem areas/regions and instead sail/cruise in the known "nice" areas of which there are too many to visit in any one person's lifetime.

[Xen]

Originally Posted by osirissail

Simply anwered - YES! If you wish to set a foot onto their land/country you must check-in first and pay the fees, if any. The most simple solution to having the need to carry weapons to defend yourself is to simply stay away from known problem areas/regions and instead sail/cruise in the known "nice" areas of which there are too many to visit in any one person's lifetime.

Thanks that was all I was looking for.where can I find a map of the nice areas? I kinda want to avoid the red sea... I think.

[waterworldly]

Do you REALLY think that you will have pirate issues that are so dominant that you need to make this a priority in your planning? Planning on cruising the east coast of Africa soon? Most newsworthy pirate attacks are on freighers, they have valuable cargo. First get on the water for a while, then start imagining catastrophy. I am sure you will find several other things that could take you down and will keep you awake at night that will need your attention long before a pirate gives you a problem.