Booze underway

[hjohnson]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

For the people who say they can safely handle more than one drink a day at sea, I say you are a disaster waiting to happen.

The problem is becoming intoxicated/impaired. If I have a G&T at happy hour after anchoring, a glass of wine with dinner a few hours later, and maybe a nightcap, that’s hardly enough to become dangerous. It might not be healthy for me, but it’s also not going to make it directly unsafe.

Yes, if you were to go and slam down three drinks in succession, that’s a completely different kettle of fish and indeed puts things at risk.

I think there are a lot out people here who struggle with moderation and portion control. If that’s the case, then absolutely, setting a dry policy is probably wise. But that’s not everyone.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

You'd win that bet. The stats are pretty clear. The most dangerous boat -- by far -- is the smaller open zippy (motor) boat.

The stats I've seen have convinced me that paddlecraft (canoes, kayaks, paddleboards) lead to more fatalities per hour of operation than any other type of boat.

In boating as with cars, the vast majority of the alcohol-fueled accidents involve an operator who is a) thoroughly inebriated e.g. BAC > 0.15 and b) operates while thoroughly inebriated with stunning regularity.

I myself don't drink while underway.

I don't like rules. I really only have two rules on my boat. 1) No tampons in the head 2) No spray sunscreen (or similar aerosol products like bug spray) to be applied below decks. These are important and most people who don't have a boat fail to appreciate their significance. Beyond that I draw attention to certain governmental mandates such as the one regarding disposal of garbage. As in other parts of my life I invite people to act as crew who I know and trust, and involve them in my boating life gradually.


I trust them to regulate their behavior without a lot of rules.


There have been any number of threads on crew who did not get along. No alcohol need be involved for this to occur.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

For the people who say they can safely handle more than one drink a day at sea, I say you are a disaster waiting to happen.

Actually you cannot.

Just that you said such a thing disqualifies you.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Jammer

The stats I've seen have convinced me that paddlecraft (canoes, kayaks, paddleboards) lead to more fatalities per hour of operation than any other type of boat.

Can you link to those stats Jammer? I've never seen it broken down by hour of operation. Love to look at those.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by AKA-None

We forgot that the rate of consumption plus empty vs food also affects impairment

Yes, add that to the variables list. In reality, what constitutes "impairment" is a mix of art and science, or perhaps I should say religion and science in this case.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Can you link to those stats Jammer? I've never seen it broken down by hour of operation. Love to look at those.

Yes, I've looked at those numbers many times. The canoe flips over, the water is cold, they don't wear PFDs, they can't swim, and they die. Or maybe they get blow out into waves, or maybe a thunderstorm comes up. This has always been true. Also many inexperienced renters.


Really, a separate case, off the topic. I'm sure drinking would not help!


---


I don't have a hard line on the boat in fair weather, but no, I would not drink before kayaking. Stupid and pointless, since kayaking is already relaxing.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I don't remember justifying it.. I have said I like to have two 33cl cans a day, one at lunch and the other at sunset..

From me..." What I am saying is people get defensive to justify what they do on a boat."


I wasn't singling you out. Just people who posts for and a matter of fact, people for or against having alcohol onboard.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Yes, I've looked at those numbers many times. The canoe flips over, the water is cold, they don't wear PFDs, they can't swim, and they die. Or maybe they get blow out into waves, or maybe a thunderstorm comes up. This has always been true. Also many inexperienced renters.

Really, a separate case, off the topic. I'm sure drinking would not help!

It's the "per hour of operation" comparison that I'm interested in seeing. I've seen the raw numbers listed by the USCG. Here canoes and kayaks incidents make up a small portion of the total: 3.6% or 3762 out of 103542. But this doesn't give the rate, comparing hours of operation.

BTW, in this database "open motorboat" accounts for over 45% of the recorded incidents.

And no... drinking definitely would not help in the case of canoeing or kayaking. Balance really matters here.

[AKA-None]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

It's the "per hour of operation" comparison that I'm interested in seeing. I've seen the raw numbers listed by the USCG. Here canoes and kayaks incidents make up a small portion of the total: 3.6% or 3762 out of 103542. But this doesn't give the rate, comparing hours of operation.

BTW, in this database "open motorboat" accounts for over 45% of the recorded incidents.

And no... drinking definitely would not help in the case of canoeing or kayaking. Balance really matters here.

Or a sup

Most of the time I see them they are obviously not paying attention to anything discernible safety related

No stats just an observation in my little area

[clamshack]

Everyone is different. Some enjoy a drink or two and are not necessarily impaired, to an extent that they would be a danger to their vessel or another.

Others like to drink until they are impaired which is a problem if you have to operate. Some folks, tend to not stop until they are inebriated or worse.

I am not a fan of rules, but unfortunately, we have to draw a line somewhere with this one. I think one or two is OK, but I prefer to have three or four, so I choose to have nothing and would expect the same if I had crew.

Perhaps if we have a guest, I'll have one to be social, but any amount probably slightly diminishes safety. So, I would prefer zero until the ship is "secured".

Drinking habits are odd to me. 50 yrs ago anyone could be smashed and no one would think twice (sort of). 20 years ago boozing it up on the weekends was a right of passage for young people. These days it's simply not "cool" to be intoxicated by booze period.

[SY Harmony]

You could write a masters thesis on sociology just out of this thread!

It all comes down to risk tolerance and risk management.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Can you link to those stats Jammer? I've never seen it broken down by hour of operation. Love to look at those.

There's a study here that hints at it:


https://files.dnr.state.mn.us/aboutd...ec-boating.pdf


Look at page 5 for ownership data. Four times as many people own powered boats as nonpowered boats (mostly paddlecraft).


Look at the top of page 21. They're trying to analyze launching behavior which means the question leaves out a) people who only use an outfitter or resort's paddlecraft and b) lakeshore owners who use the boat on their own property. But it does show that people who use paddlecraft typically make very few trips per year, a mean of about 3. It is not my experience that shoreline owners and outfitter/resort/marina patrons make up a significant share of paddlecraft users in Minnesota and the bottom chart on the same page bears this out.


The table at the bottom of page 19 includes both motorized and nonmotorized and shows a mean of about 6 launches a year. That's already twice the mean for paddlecraft, but typically these are longer duration trips, and unlike paddlecraft, there are significant amounts of motorboat use by shoreline owners, and resort/marina patrons that don't show up in the statistics. Also, in my experience, these trips are longer. There are plenty of people who fish or sail all day but a typical kayak trip is two hours.


So I think this supports at least a 5x difference in hours of use per watercraft registered, and with 4x as many power boats as nonpowered that's a 20x difference in hours of use overall.


In 2020 in the USA (the most recent year for which national data is available), there were 42 canoeing deaths, 112 kayak deaths, and 10 SUP deaths, for a total of 164 paddlecraft deaths. There were 603 deaths in all other types of boats combined. Paddlecraft deaths were 21% of the total.


[ after writing this I found the 2021 data here: https://uscgboating.org/statistics/a...statistics.php - it's 160 out of 658 total this year this year or 24% paddlecraft ]



In 2021 in Minnesota (the most recent year for which MN data is available) there were 3 canoeing fatalities out of 19 total boating fatalities. https://files.dnr.state.mn.us/educat..._summary21.pdf - The prior year shows 6 paddlecraft fatalities out of 16 total.



The Minnesota reports are narrative in form and make it clear that a significant share of the reported powerboat fatalities are from people deliberately entering the water to swim.



I don't think the safety and paddlecraft vs motorized picture in MN is different than anywhere else. It's a good place to study though because they publish more comprehensive reports and require nearly all paddlecraft to be registered, so there's better data.


I'll let you draw whatever conclusions you want from there.

[KayZee]

I'll add my voice. I take my Skipper In Charge respsonsibility VERY seriously. COULD I have *1* beer once an hour and stay sober enough? Probably. Here's why I don't. One leads to two; an hour leads to 45 minutes etc. etc. That's how alcohol works. Guests I don't expect to have operational responsiblities may have "soft" alcohol. I don't drink when I am underway. Zero is an non-negotiable number. Boy, I like my beer; I'm drinking one as I type this and I really like bourbon, any whiskey, whisky, scotch, whatever but like I said above I take my SIC responsiblility very seriously so for me, underway. It's none.

That said, the admiral, sweetheart that she is, understands that while she likes being taken places on boats, she's not in love with the minutae of sailing. Where we go, how we get there, what lines to pull and how much generally falls to me. When we're tied up, anchor down or on the mooring, the skipper gets a scotch to wind down with while she takes on the majority of tidying up and getting us out of underway mode and into on the hook mode.

[Overdue]

Consequences In Local (US) Waters: Following-up on the reference to BUI, well a visit from Marine Police (obviously if you are sailing in "local" waters) could have consequences you hadn't anticipated. Many years ago I heard about a guy on a "booze-cruise" (bunch of gents having fun, afternoon inshore fishing then bar-hopping, but well-stocked on the boat also), and I guess their behavior somehow got the attention of a local Marine Police Officer, who approached, boarded, asked who was the "captain". The owner would have been identified as the "captain" but he had ingested too much, so one of the guests (had ingested very little) announced he was the "captain". So the Marine Police conducted a field sobriety test, then escorted the boat to a municipal dock, where a State Trooper was waiting with a breathalyzer machine, and informed the "captain" if his BAC was too high, he would be processed the same as driving DUI, including consequences of losing his drivers license. He was lucky, in those days you had to be .10 BAC to be arrested and he was below that and released with a warning to be careful (aka we'll be watching). Be careful when close enough to anywhere there could be consequences, and realize that land-based state police might be invited to your interrogation / prosecution.

[Cwens]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Alcohol free beers are the worst.......

they should take them off the market.

While even the best are still thin and lacking in maltiness or anything I'd call body, there have been significant recent improvements in the technology of producing NA beer, and also a realization that there's a market in selling NA beer to people who actually like beer. Check out Athletic Brewing Company, for example. Shop by calorie count: the higher calorie NA beers aren't as thin tasting as the low-calorie ones.