Dangers at Sea, Dangers on Land

[Jim Cate]

A couple of years ago a young person...16 yo IIRC... was killed on a marina dock somewhere in SE Asia (don't remember exactly where). She was struck in the head by a flying dock cleat that broke loose when a very large yacht overloaded it.

So, technically, she was a cruising child, and she died as a result of an accident related to that activity. I don't think that most of us would categorize this incident as the sort of thing this thread was addressing.

Jim

[Mr B]

Sailing back to OZ from Fiji, I met a couple of cruisers that had kids on board full time, Under Five years of age, School via the internet, Etc,
Fenced off Boat, Kids cant fall over board, Plus the little tackers were very sea savey,

My list of dangers that I have had over my years. From the most dangerous to the least dangerous,

!/ Engineering Blacksmith, Forging Steel under a Double Leg Steam Hammer,
2/ Snow Skiing, Black Runs,
3/ Working at the top of Multistory buildings and New Constructions, Whats a safety harness, ?????????
4/ Getting Sprayed with 900 + C Cyanide Salt while Heat Treating Steel,
5/ Getting crushed under Steel or a huge machine that smashes your carcase,
6/ Working around my home,
7/ Shoreline or inland boating.on the Hook or swing mooring, YAAARRRRGGGGG.
8/ Waterskiing,
9/ Speed and fishing boats,
10/ Driving on the roads,
11/ High Speed Motor Cycles, Currently recovering from a broken shoulder,
12/ Any land activities,
13/ Sailing Coastal waters, In anything, Dont even Blink,

50/ Sailing across Oceans, No contact with any one, Single Handed, Thats when I feel the Safest, And very much at ease, I am relaxed, Totally,
Extremely Bad Weather is down to common sense if you want to survive it, Leave your EGO at home on your desk,

[Mr B]

Was there a Kid on that yacht that dissapeared of NZ earlier this year, with 7 odd people on board, ????????

[Spleen]

Originally Posted by Mr B

Was there a Kid on that yacht that dissapeared of NZ earlier this year, with 7 odd people on board, ????????

I believe the two 19 year olds were the youngest.

[Sailor g]

Plan B!
I know no child lost or even injured (except minor bump) from sailing. But as a teacher (26 yrs), I've had 10 students die-car accidents, 1 drowning in hot springs from alcohol, 1 gang violence and 3 to suicide. Granted I've worked with many students. The marina paper tells accidents,etc and I haven't known or read of anyone being serious injured or killed boating. Oops. Take that back-2? were run over when a Coast Guard Boat accidentally ran into their boat at high speed 4th of July event (I think) in channel in San Diego.

I've been to the hospital and ER 2x this year (infections) but 0 illnesses while sailing/cruising. Not one illness even riding buses to shopping & through Mexico (must have been exposed to some new germs but no illness). Sailors are pretty fit so maybe that keeps is healthy.

PS. Spouse sailed 30+ year with no more than bumps or strains. One day skiing/One fall-did serious damage to his back. Not relative to stats. Just for S & G.

[Kenomac]

I've worked in the construction trades, and I'd equate living and sailing on a boat to working in a woodshop as far as safety is concerned. Sure if you're constantly vigilant and develop good safety habits, you can limit the risk and exposer. But seriously, there's nothing in my daily land based life that exposes me to the possibility of loosing a finger or limb, drowning or serious head injury. On the boat we accept these risks, others can deny they exist, but the risks and dangers are very real. Example: Every time I deploy our 45kg (99 pound) anchor and 1/2 inch chain I risk loosing a foot or hand if I'm careless. I do this task almost daily. Example #2: Two weeks ago I personally went up our 72ft mast to untangle a halyard wrapped around the top of our roller furling; 99.9% of the folks reading this... would be afraid to do this task for understandable reasons. When does something even close to this sort of activity come up in daily land-based life?

Another danger at sea which I discovered over the past couple of weeks is having someone aboard during a passage who won't listen, acts irrationally and refuses to obey orders. On land, one can usually just walk away from the situation, but at sea, the situation has to be dealt with whilst the dangerous situation continues.

On land in the USA, I always carry a handgun. On the boat, I don't feel than a gun is needed where I cruise, but this is an entirely different issue regarding safety. Just one of the reasons I look forward to my cruising months at sea and anchor.

[GregoryK]

There are plenty of places within the US that are a lot more than 15 minutes from a full blown ER. I know as I lived in one for about 10 years. The closest facility was an 8 bed hospital some 30 minutes by road, IF the roads were clear. As ER's went this was a bit of a joke. Anything serious (say apendicitis) would require you to be moved to a facility off themountain. (about 45 minutes or more from the hospital with clear dry roads)

In winter that was often not the case. The nearest full ER was about an hour away from my home, again assuming the road was clear. In inclement weather that could be 2 hours or more, if they had not closed the roads completely. (that happened about once a year.) Should I have been hauled off for raising my kid there because it was somehow unsafe to be more than 15 minutes from a full ER.?

Oh and I could have easily been a LOT further out than that, I was just in the mountains north of the L.A. metroplex. Try driving across west Texas some time, or the HIgh desert of California. People do live in these places. And they are a LOT more that 15 minutes from an ER. Are they bad parents too now?

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I've worked in the construction trades, and I'd equate living and sailing on a boat to working in a woodshop as far as safety is concerned. Sure if you're constantly vigilant and develop good safety habits, you can limit the risk and exposer. But seriously, there's nothing in my daily land based life that exposes me to the possibility of loosing a finger or limb, drowning or serious head injury. On the boat we accept these risks, others can deny they exist, but the risks and dangers are very real. Example: Every time I deploy our 45kg (99 pound) anchor and 1/2 inch chain I risk loosing a foot or hand if I'm careless. I do this task almost daily. Example #2: Two weeks ago I personally went up our 72ft mast to untangle a halyard wrapped around the top of our roller furling; 99.9% of the folks reading this... would be afraid to do this task for understandable reasons. When does something even close to this sort of activity come up in daily land-based life?

Another danger at sea which I discovered over the past couple of weeks is having someone aboard during a passage who won't listen, acts irrationally and refuses to obey orders. On land, one can usually just walk away from the situation, but at sea, the situation has to be dealt with whilst the dangerous situation continues.

On land in the USA, I always carry a handgun. On the boat, I don't feel than a gun is needed where I cruise, but this is an entirely different issue regarding safety. Just one of the reasons I look forward to my cruising months at sea and anchor.

Oh come on, Ken! Neither of those activities sport the chance of death or injury that driving a car on the freeway does, and I bet that you spend FAR more time doing that than either mast climbing or anchoring.

And in both of your example activities, YOU have a lot of control of the outcome. You have little control of the drunk going the other way with a 150 mph closing speed.

We've lived at anchor (primarily) for nearly thirty years now... no anchoring injuries as yet. With a windlass the chance of injury seems pretty remote to me. I've been up and down the mast countless times, too. Actually, within the past six weeks, at least ten times whilst rigging a new stay and furler. I'm careful at both jobs, and while I don't particularly like heights, neither one seems very hazardous to me.

I have suffered a few minor injuries whilst cruising: back strains lugging water jugs and cutting the end off a finger whilst chopping onions... two activities which could just as well have been land based!

Actually, the venue which has resulted in the most injuries to yotties of our acquaintance has been boatyards... on land! Ladder falls, running into scaffolding, electric shock, sprains and strains from unaccustomed jobs, grinder accidents, chemical/fume poisoning... it's a dangerous and somewhat unfamiliar environment for us, and it has taken it's toll on our friends. But I wouldn't say they were sailing injuries, would you?

I don't claim that sailing is risk free by any means. However, many of the risks can be managed, and no environment is risk free.

Oh, I don't ever feel the need to carry a firearm in the USA... another place we seem to disagree.

Jim

[Mr B]

I would like to carry a 12 Guage Shotgun (single shot) when I am travelling across the north of Australia,
Ton and a half of Croc walking up my back steps, Not a pleasant thought,

The Crocodiles are 20 feet long now and getting bigger, They are now big enough to consider you lunch,
Salt Water Aussie Crocs will come out of the water after you, Even in your tent on the banks,
Attacks on people are getting very common now, Two people were eaten in the last two weeks,
Be very carefull across the north of Australia, Dont go swimming on beaches or creeks leading off the beaches, Especially Darwin, Etc Etc,

I wont be zooming around in my Dinghy,

[Kenomac]

"Another danger at sea which I discovered over the past couple of weeks is having someone aboard during a passage who won't listen, acts irrationally and refuses to obey orders and many times does the opposite action. On land, one can usually just walk away from the situation, but at sea, the situation has to be dealt with whilst the dangerous situation continues."

Jim,

Can you comment on this situation? Has it ever happened to you or Ann? I maintain a no alcohol during a passage policy, but yes, alcohol or some other mind altering substance definitely seemed to be in play with the individual I had aboard.

Ken

[carstenb]

let'sgo sailing

you claim you want to discuss the risk/safety of ocean cruising with children, yet you completely ignored the data I presented. This data ranks sports in terms of accidents per million hours of participation.

The data was collected by insurance companies. This means reported injuries (for insurance purposes) Stubbing your toe on a cleat will not be in here (I do not consider stubbing your toe on a cleat as a serious risk that only applies to boaters.

Here's the link again - the only sport that is safer than Off-shore sailing is golf

Cruising Life.


And if you want to read about how dangerous high school and college sports are, including the many fatalities involved with cheerleading, here's another link

http://bethandevans.com/pdf/AllSport.pd

As I noted earlier - there is no data available that shows any level of increased risk in off-shore sailing - with or without children. On the contrary - according to data available, off-shore sailng is virtually the most risk-free sport around.

That you feel one should live close to full-blown medical facilities is your right as a parent. If you feel this way, then move our familiy to such a location.

But there is no data showing that those parents that take their children cruising are exposing them to any level of increased danger.

[StuM]

> This data ranks sports in terms of accidents per million hours of participation.

We keep on seeing spurious comparisons between cruising and various sports. Repeating them is pointless.

"Offshore Sailing" as a sport is a different thing entirely to "Offshore Cruising" and any comparison of cruising with sporting activities is totally irrelevant.

Sports, including "offshore sailing" have competitive elements which encourage participants to push things to the limit and take risks. Not so with cruising.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

"Another danger at sea which I discovered over the past couple of weeks is having someone aboard during a passage who won't listen, acts irrationally and refuses to obey orders and many times does the opposite action. On land, one can usually just walk away from the situation, but at sea, the situation has to be dealt with whilst the dangerous situation continues."

Jim,

Can you comment on this situation? Has it ever happened to you or Ann? I maintain a no alcohol during a passage policy, but yes, alcohol or some other mind altering substance definitely seemed to be in play with the individual I had aboard.

Ken

G'Day Ken,

No, nothing like that has ever happened to us, mostly because we have never taken crew on passages. Why don't we take crew? Possibly because we worry about scenarios such as what you describe!

We have taken old friends on overnight trips a few times, but never on an extended passage. As we get older (and older, and older) the prospect of another body to share the burdens sometimes appeals, but so far the negatives have outweighed the positives for us. Having to care for another person at sea and fit them into our well oiled processes seems daunting and frankly, more work than it would save us.

We enjoy having guests on board whilst coastal cruising, especially in exotic and interesting places. But these are family or close friends whose behaviors are well known in advance. I'd hate to have to deal with a stranger, especially one who turned contrary and combative far at sea. Yuck! We've heard such stories now and then, and wonder how one would deal with the situation. The ones that we are familiar with turned pretty ugly...

As we have often said: the two most dangerous things that you can do on a yacht are to take on unknown crew or serve an unknown skipper.

BTW, we too maintain a dry ship at sea. Not even a glass of wine with dinner, something we nearly always do at other times. On watch is no time for any diminution whatsoever of one's abilities.

Cheers,

Jim

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

"Another danger at sea which I discovered over the past couple of weeks is having someone aboard during a passage who won't listen, acts irrationally and refuses to obey orders and many times does the opposite action. On land, one can usually just walk away from the situation, but at sea, the situation has to be dealt with whilst the dangerous situation continues."

Jim,

Can you comment on this situation? Has it ever happened to you or Ann? I maintain a no alcohol during a passage policy, but yes, alcohol or some other mind altering substance definitely seemed to be in play with the individual I had aboard.

Ken

Had it happen a couple of times.. I just managed it by scaring the crap outa them.. each time was a different method and they left at the next Port..

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by carstenb

let'sgo sailing

you claim you want to discuss the risk/safety of ocean cruising with children, yet you completely ignored the data I presented. This data ranks sports in terms of accidents per million hours of participation.

I ignored it because it's not relevant. I did discuss why I thought those statistics were meaningless earlier in the thread.

Why do you keep bringing it up?

As far as taking a young child across an ocean, I'm quite certain there aren't any statistics to show anything meaningful one way or the other.

So the only way to evaluate those risks are on a case by case basis, and this can be assessed only by the parents. I would think their cruising experience in the type of trip proposed would be the most relevant, as well as their experience with that age of child, and the overall health of the child. I would think another thing to consider would be if there were ample crew on board to handle both the sailing and child-rearing requirements.

There would still generally be the risk of taking the child pretty far from a high standard of emergency care, but the parents would be assuming and accepting that risk. Most would attempt to address that risk with first aid training and a well-stocked first aid kit.

If you have a better way to assess the risks, please state them, but bringing up sports injury rates doesn't prove anything, and is a waste of time in my opinion.