Defending your boat (pirates, angry mobs of fisherman etc)

[Bycrick]

It’s fun to watch the two sides of this argument go at it. On one side, there’s the "it’s immoral to defend yourself or your family property. Let the government do it, if necessary."

On the other side, you have the "arm yourself to the teeth, and shoot anybody that steps over the line "

Each side can create hypothetical scenarios that "positively demonstrate" that their side is the only one.

Whatever tools I use, or don’t use, for self -defense are a trade off between utility, availability, effectiveness and legality, among other things. But just because you think that someone should roll over and acquiesce to an attack, doesn’t mean that I’m obligated to agree.

No solution will work all the time.

It’s no different on a boat than on land. Except that maybe on a boat, you're more likely to have to attempt to solve the problem by yourself. Having the "necessary tools" for that is no different than having other tools to solve other problems.

"Non-lethal" weapons because you don’t really want to kill somebody seems about as silly as a foam-rubber knife so you can’t cut yourself. The purpose of a weapon is to, at most, kill the opponent, not scare him to death. If you feel you need a weapon, it should be the most effective one available under the circumstances. And you’re responsible for its appropriate use under the circumstances.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Bycrick

It’s fun to watch the two sides of this argument go at it. On one side, there’s the "it’s immoral to defend yourself or your family property. Let the government do it, if necessary."

On the other side, you have the "arm yourself to the teeth, and shoot anybody that steps over the line "

Hyperbole is fun, but honestly, no one here has advanced either of those extreme positions. In particular, no-one has said "it’s immoral to defend yourself".

The issue now is mainly whether the average cruiser could mount a defense to a pirate attack and expect to succeed, vs choosing to avoid sailing into a area known for pirate activity, or taking other measures like escorted convoys.

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by GreenHeaven

THE PROBLEMS with carrying a gun on board are numerous.

I take no position on the issue, (and didn't intend any with my post).
As I'm not going cruising to any foreign places, I don't have any skin in this discussion.
I posted that merely to show, (perhaps tongue-in-cheek,) how polarizing the issue of firearms has become.
As an older person, I can remember when the viewpoints were not so far apart.
When I and all my friends were growing up, we mostly all had fathers that had been in WWII, and most of us had been hunting/shooting, and learning about firearms and their safe handling before we got out of high school, (some schools had marksmanship classes).
I just found it almost laughable, (in a sad way,) that so many posts inferred that only those who were "highly trained" or "experts" should even consider having a firearm.
As another poster said, my experiences with "pirates" have been the "marine" stores.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

I just found it almost laughable, (in a sad way,) that so many posts inferred that only those who were "highly trained" or "experts" should even consider having a firearm.

To be fair, the people with experience have told us that a person should have training and experience, if they are thinking that they might at some point intend to use a firearm to defend their boat from attackers.

I freely admit that I believe that one must have background checks and training in order to own and use a firearm. I'm not exactly alone in thinking that.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

I haven't marginalized it. I have stated that I believe (lacking further proof otherwise) it's not very common globally, and where it IS known to be a significant risk, it's perhaps wisest to not cruise there. Or to have some better defensive strategy like escorted convoys.
I roll my eyes at the idea that some might be getting, that cruiser + firearm = safety. Despite all the caveats that you and others have given about having training and experience.

Wow. You must have missed that I wrote there is no issue at all in North American nor EU waters. Probably not in Australian waters either, although I wouldn’t be sure of the north coast.
The whole point of all of this centers around blue water cruisers who flock to the popular cruiser hangouts: Caribbean and South America, as well as those who want to pass the Suez Canal. So averaging it out worldwide is completely flawed and not helpful at all… it’s just to confuse the thread.

You suggest that armed cruisers didn’t have solid training? That’s a wild assumption and not at all what I see. How long have you been out cruising and how many armed cruisers did you meet to come to that? Almost all the armed cruisers I meet are ex law enforcement (incl. FBI etc), ex military or experienced sports shooters/hunters. I can only think of two who didn’t fall in that category in 20 years.
And yes, the average armed cruiser does equal security in the areas they are and this is fully understood by local law enforcement, I have talked with them about this multiple times. None of them would do what we cruisers do unarmed.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

I can't imagine how barracading oneself inside a fragile little pleasure-boat while invaders mill about outside could ever end well. But claustrophobia does that.

They could just tow it (or sail it) to wherever...

You are saying the 40 cases described are false?

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

I can't imagine how barracading oneself inside a fragile little pleasure-boat while invaders mill about outside could ever end well. But claustrophobia does that.

They could just tow it (or sail it) to wherever...

It has worked in practice in a number of cases. A key point is that you don't have to hold out "forever." You only have to hold out until they get antsy and wonder if help is on the way or if there's an intercept being set up to nab them on the way home.

[Flying Monkey]

This is such good discussion over an issue that is a real dilemma.
No one wants to surrender. No one wants any one to be hurt. Everyone wants to protect their life, the lives of their loved ones, and their property. Everyone wants to be safe.
How do all these needs and wants get resolved in a way that has the minimum downside risk? What a puzzle, especially in international, marine travel.
The risk of pirates, or any other invading force is certainly present in some situations.
The idea of defending against any such attack has a lot of appeal in some areas.

My belief is that the "bad guys" are mostly after material loot. Just like everyone, they must wanna get paid, get l**d, and get home. Of course, there are some people with very bad intentions who are looking to hurt people.
For me, I believe the course of action with the lowest downside risk - the lowest chance of harm/death of a person, is to run away. Give them the stuff. Hope they get distracted by the loot, and let the liferaft of people go. I also believe that if tney are the kind who reallt want to hurt the people, then they are probably going to do that regardless of my action. I am one man on a boat, amd maybe some crew, who, will probably be freaking out and not so useful in defense drills.
I have seen men crumble and shake like a leaf on a tree who have spent years training, preparing, practicing for military action. This is not a slight against these brave men, and all who volunteer for military service. I admire and bless everyone of them. It is a function of human behavior. Therefore, the idea of an pleasure cruising sailboat effectively conducting defense drills and actually engaging with weapons seems like a far fantasy - not that it could not happen. Of course it could, but I believe it would be an extremely rare thing.
Do not get me wrong. I would love to be the guy who would stand and deliver a strong defense and repulse an attack. But if onw of my crew got injured, killed, in that process, it would be an unacceptable event.
Therefore, run for the hills.

Perhaps taking that "shotgun" in to the escape vehicle with the crew would be a good idea and use that as a last stand? I would fight with everything I had to protect the crew in the 'escape pod". That would be a last stand situation it seems. I can see a strong argument for it.

I believe in that case, if choosing to arm, then the legal issue must be figured out without doubt.
So I will still run away and live another day, even though well trained in application of lethal force.

[Flying Monkey]

Oh and avoid the pirate and high crime areas.

[s/v Jedi]

The idea that the ability to legally own a firearm and get training is only possible in the US is false. In a strict country like Holland, I have a gun permit, can buy a gun by just walking into the gun-shop and showing my permit. I got training from a world champion too, almost impossible in the US.
As long as you’re not a criminal, can pass the muster and go through the hoops, you can do this in almost every country. Even in the UK, where handguns are banned for citizens, you can still do it for a shotgun or even a high powered rifle.

I do agree that handgun training for self defense is not available in many countries. Except of course when you serve in uniform. But even then, citizens from most EU countries can simply do the course in the US. For example, when you have an EU passport and an ESTA to enter the US, you are allowed to have/handle a gun, buy ammo etc. The only things you can’t do is buy a gun or carry it concealed. If you enter with a B1/B2 visa, you need an additional document like a hunting permit that you can get online for free or $10 or something like that.

So you can stock up on ammo and skills while cruising the US… it’s called freedom

[Bycrick]

Hyperbole is not just fun, but useful. The "extreme positions" are the only ones that can be described without using a bunch of adjectives, which the writer gets to define.

What’s "the average cruiser?" Am I an average cruiser?

What’s the average pirate? Just because I couldn’t fight the Venezuelan Navy says nothing about my ability to respond efectively to three drunks in a panga at 0300 with an old pistol.

So you sit comfortably at home and pontificate about whether some mythical “average cruiser” should or shouldn’t do something while traveling someplace far away from where you are, under far different circumstances.

To conclude that people shouldn’t carry guns because they don’t always solve a particular problem is a much nonsense as saying I shouldn’t carry a liferaft because it might not work under the conditions that I need it.

but honestly, no one here has advanced either of those extreme positions. In particular, no-one has said "it’s immoral to defend yourself".

The issue now is mainly whether the average cruiser could mount a defense to a pirate attack and expect to succeed, vs choosing to avoid sailing into a area known for pirate activity, or taking other measures

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by GreenHeaven

, BUT shooting a person, even a pirate or angry mob leader is a very different thing.

Its not possible to practice, so I would hope that the threat of gun is enough as in the video linked.

Any gun range or firearms instructor can set you up with life-sized silhouettes to shoot. That is how law enforcement throughout the world are trained. Good instructors spend a great deal of time on the moral, legal, and psychosocial aspects of self-defense and make sure their students have thought through these matters ahead of time so that they don't have to work them out on the fly in an emergency. Books have been written.

THE PROBLEMS with carrying a gun on board are numerous. Its always a consideration in every decision. Its not relaxing having to constantly have that responsibility in the back of your mind.

I guess. Sort of like the tyranny of command -- some people can never learn to relax. Others adapt. It is possible to be responsible without having to think about it the whole time. I can think of countless people who have spent a lifetime with firearms in their house without having it affect their inner peace.

It would seem to make snese to conceal it. You could hide a handgun in the liferaft or disguised as machinery in the engine room cover, but a 12guage is another matter. Spinnaker pole?

Depends what you're trying to achieve. A Mossberg 500 is about 24" long disassembled IIRC, a little under twice that assembled. You can put it in its case and stash it under the edge of the mattress in your v-berth, or make a special locker for it somewhere that can be sealed for customs etc. Most people who use firearms for self-defense have the ability to store them in varying levels of security and readiness depending on the threat environment they perceive around them.


You can run a cable lock through the action if you're concerned about unauthorized use, and run a cable lock through the action and a hardpoint on the boat if you are concerned about unauthorized removal.

Then there are access problems. When you need it, you need it quick. Then there are corrosion problems, jamming problems, ammo storage problems.

There are various effective approaches to all this. Security plus access are covered in most training curricula. There are marinized noncorrosive versions of the Mossberg 500 and other typical self-defense shotguns. Modern self-defense oriented firearms rarely jam and can be cleared quickly when they do, pump shotguns especially so.

Soon the firearm just takes center stage in the cruising instead of the snorkelling and beaches,

But its hard to deny its utility when you need it

Well, that's the tradeoff in cruising in general, right? To sail a boat safely you have to get good, be responsible, pay attention to the weather and seas and other boats, anchor safely, fix the furler when it jams, deal with customs and immigration, and have a certain amount of navigational skill. You're never really, truly off watch. Over time it becomes second nature.


I guess the tl;dr of all this is that the concerns you raise are exactly the sorts of things that make training and mentorship important.

[TrentePieds]

Giro said: "None of us should decide what posts should be ignored and what posts should not be ignored. Perhaps it is because I live in the USA, where freedom of speech is still allowed, that I feel the way do. Freedom of speech is still allowed here, currently, at least."

I'm curious - indeed fascinated! How, exactly, does "X"s suggestion, in this case Franzisca's, that we ignore a statement by 'Y", in this case by GreenHaven, interfere with "Y"s, in this case Giro's, enjoyment of free speech?

You'll have to forgive us benighted colonials, Giro, for being unable to perform such prodigious leaps of logic. It must be because the water we drink springs from other sources :-)!

TrentePieds

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

For example, when you have an EU passport and an ESTA to enter the US, you are allowed to have/handle a gun, buy ammo etc. The only things you can’t do is buy a gun or carry it concealed. If you enter with a B1/B2 visa, you need an additional document like a hunting permit that you can get online for free or $10 or something like that.

Be careful. Case law on what constitutes transfer and possession is mixed, and there are significant additional restrictions in many states. There is a broad exemption for noncitizens/nonresidents with hunting licenses, yes, but I would urge caution if you are not actually planning on doing any hunting on your trip to the USA or if the firearms in question are clearly not suitable for the kind of hunting you're licensed/planning to do.

[ixnax]

Originally Posted by Jammer

Both at the same time. I read the reports. Most of the reports indicate that the pirates have strength in numbers, various sharp and blunt weapons, and in many cases one or more firearms, usually pistols. That's enough to pose a serious hazard to unarmed cruisers, but none of the pirates on the boat are going to want to be the first one up against a cruiser defending themselves with a shotgun.


For clarity, a pump shotgun (with the proper ammunition and in capable hands) is a formidable weapon and not just a movie prop.




Transiting some of the bad areas is unavoidable for certain popular itineraries. Lots of people are willing to accept some risk in order to be able to get to the Panama Canal, for example, or from the Indian Ocean to the Atlantic. What we're discussing here is a means of mitigating some of that risk.

For clarity, a pump shotgun (with the proper ammunition and in capable hands) is a formidable weapon and not just a movie prop.


The first shot is formidable if you're chambered for 3" and are loaded with buckshot. In between Shots 1 and 2 you're a target.