GUNS

[GMac]

Originally Posted by eskfreedom

With the way foreigners hate Americans now days they just assume kill you and sink your boat.Which brings to mind an article I read in Cruising World. Two sailboats off Yemen were attacked by two boats with ten men armed with AK's.

Did the baddies know they were Americans? I'm a foreigner and I don't want to kill you.

Not 'having a go' but may I suggest maybe a small re-direction in mindset. 1 person in 10's of millions 'may possibly' want do 'something' to you. A touch of paranoia (possibly) and guns are not a safe mix?

Just thinking of the freindly fishermen and others around the coasts of the world.

[Michaele]

If I muddled two separate incidents I apologise...

There are several attacks by pirates every year in the Gulf of Aden on yachts.... Having been attacked and other than financial loss having suffered no harm at all I was saddened when the US navy found 30 odd drowned Somalian children, women and men... Seemed a shame particularly as the following attacks - extreme force was used by the pirate group regularly operating in the area...

If you want to carry guns you have to be prepared to kill people - you have to be sure that your ability and firepower is stronger and better than the ememy.... That is the only point I am trying to make... My observation of the Arab nations in that area is that from a very young age men bear arms, openly in the street and I am not talking hand guns. They are very proficient and very courageous.. Many are also good Muslims. Not extreamists..

I must confess that I find Gmac's post very attractive and to the point.

Michael

eskfreedom, you do make an interesting point. Keeping a gun on board for protection is the great American myth. You may have it on board for fun, you may have it on board because you fear the world, but there are far better methods of "protecting yourself". I respect your decision to carry firearms with you. I would not choose to carry them myself, but that is because the benefit does not outweigh the cost for me. What has become clear here is that the answer to your question is the rules vary, and can be very limiting if you have firearms on board. If the cost is worth it to you, go for it.

[GMac]

Originally Posted by Michaele

I must confess that I find Gmac's post very attractive and to the point.

Michael

Attractive Should I be afraid ??

I was just trying to point out that if you go somewhere expecting something to happen you will be in a mindset to more readily to accept is happening, and react accordingly, even if it is not what is actually happening. Sometimes this maybe good but if expecting trouble the freindly local fishermen coming out to give you a fish may just 'morph' into a nasty. Chuck a gun into the mix and a tragic accident may happen.

If anyone wants to carry one that is their choice to do so, generally. They will have to put up with Customs hassles but that is just a part of carrying it.

I must say I took a 65ft ketch from NZ up to the US for a bloke and he was a gun nut. Had a skeat thing set-up on the transom. A lot of fun in the middle of no-where. The owner told me to make a point of tell the US officals of the guns on first contact, which I did. They came down and offer to take the guns back to the station for safe keeping, an offer I accepted. The owner picked them up when he came and got his boat. Worked well, no hassles and everyone felt safe. That was pre 9/11. The Customs in Taihiti were an arse, anal French ******'s, zero sense of humour. Though we were going to be nailed as gun runners to the locals at one stage, not nice.

[hellosailor]

"none of us carry guns, police included. We like it that way. "
And what State is that?

[sneuman]

I don't really care to say much more on the subject, other than to correct some misleading information posted earlier:

Hellosailor pointed to Florida's "must carry" law as reducing the rate of gun violence.

1) True, gun violence did go down slightly after the law was passed, but it went down *nationwide* in the same period as well, and not as much in Florida as in other states with gun control legislation. I believe the rate for Florida is something like 700 gun deaths per 100,000 people. That's still quite high.

2) The two states generally recognized as having the nation's toughest gun laws, Hawaii and Massachusettes, also (coincidentally?) have the lowest rate of gun crime. From The Boston Bay State Banner, March 30, 2006:

"The rate of gun deaths in Massachusetts rose slightly to more than 3 per 100,000 people, while Hawaii’s rate also went down to just below that level. The national rate remained at more than 10 deaths per 100,000 people."

[GMac]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

"none of us carry guns, police included. We like it that way. "
And what State is that?

Think a tad further south.

A country called New Zealand. Most hunt and have many guns, myself included but we don't carry them around, not allowed. Only some of the police carry them and only when called out to a big incident.

No-one here wants to be shot by the police, the head bloke of our 'Armed Offenders Squad' took 7 shots (at close range) to drop a cow loose on the motorway, and split his own forehead open doing it . Most would prefer to be taken out a bit cleaner than that and not end up resembling a teabag.

10 in 100,000 deaths by Gun??? Surely not.
Whats the "must carry' law? Doesn't mean you 'have' to carry one does it?

[hellosailor]

SN, last time I checked (and I have no reason to believe the statistics were changed) the US DOJ statistics showed that after Florida's "shall carry" law passed, their ate plummeted compared to a RISING national rate. And the stats have been similar for pretty much every jurisdiction that has passed similar laws.

I don't know about MA and HI but will look into them. You might also conveniently note that the CITIES with the strictest gun control laws (effectively prohibiting private gun ownership) include Wasington DC and Chicago, where the rates of gun crime happen to be among, or the highest, in the US.

There are many stats quoted and distorted by many people with agendas. The ones I've seen are from the US DOJ and various city and state police agencies, which for better or worse are the best source statistics kept.

"I believe the rate for Florida is something like 700 gun deaths per 100,000 people. " Oooh, the famous quote of "gun deaths" like that quoted byu HCI until they were forced to shut down by their distortions. "Gun Deaths" usually includes teen gang bangers killing each other, and what those folks do to each other can be cited as proof of anything except what it is: Folks who neither know nor follow the laws, and are unaffected by gun legislation. Try citing gun *crimes* and other objective figures, and the numbers always come out differently.

[hellosailor]

GMac-
New Zealand *is* a State. A "nation state", which in US English is still a "state" in the traditional meaning of the word. Our own nation is supposed to be composed of 50 sovereign states, and it is a Federal Republic. IIRC New Zealand is one state which is also one nation, a "nation state".

"Whats the "must carry' law? Doesn't mean you 'have' to carry one does it?" The "must carry law" is a fantasy created by people who want to distort facts. There are no "must carry" laws. A "shall carry" law refers to a law saying that a permit to carry concealed weapons SHALL BE ISSUED ON REQUEST unless there is a specific reason to deny it, like a prior felony conviction.

NZ is in many ways a unique place, what does and doesn't work in other places may not easily be extrapolated to what would work there.

Think if you will of how a couple of dozen ragheads (feel free to take offense) managed to accomplish the 9/11 attacks, and the train attacks in Spain, and in London, all without guns. Guns are merely one of many weapons, and the people who complain that guns cause crimes seem to forget the other incidentals--like, how many crimes they prevent, how many lives they save, and how many other weapons are quickly used when guns are banned. And, the historical record of states dating back to the Roman Empire and the Chinese dynasties who banned some of their peoples from owning weapons of various types. Machiavelli wrote on the matter, the record and issues stand unchanged.

In the UK there's apparently a serious movement afoot to ban pointed kitchen knives because "there is no need for pointed knives in the kitchen" and, apparently, they've become a weapon of choice for domestic violence now. No guns required.

It is obviously a sensibl movement, in the US knives are banned in most schools and "sporks" are used instead, for the same reason they are used in prisons. You can't stab anyone with a spork. (Well, not until you sharpen it down as the prisoners so often do.)

Violence? Will use what it can get.

And the ragheads? Actually missed about 90% of the target they could have hit. (3000 killed out of 40,000+ potential victims.) Like roaches, and many users of violence, they are persistant--but not bright.

[GMac]

Err.. I thought there were more states in the States than 50. Why am I thinking 53, OK 52 if you take out 'The Sherrif' in Australia .

When we think of 'states' we think XX States in the Nation of the US or as in "What a state you were in after that 2nd 40oz of Rum"

Happy about the 'must carry' law explaination. It sounded very spooky before.

If someone wants to do serious harm to you, a gun is only one of very many ways. A gun is probably the quickest and easiest but far from the only choice. Here we seem to come up with some very cunning ways without guns. Very slow sneaky poisoning of your spouse is popular here at the moment.

Maybe that's the problem, it is just to easy to use a gun if you have one to hand. Maybe if we all had to find a lump of wood and beat each other to death more would not be bothered or have those few extra minutes/seconds to calm down. It would be very hard to do a 'drive by' and kill someone with a bit of 4x2.

There is ongoing discussion about having guns more readily avaliable here. The general concensus is that if a baddy wants to knock off your house, for example, they will be more likely to carry a gun if they think one is in the house. More guns = more times they will go off. Same reasoning is why the Police don't cary them. The 'No escalation' theory, seems to work mostly.

Never mind, lets going for a yacht with or without our guns and/or 4x2.

[GMac]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

And the ragheads? Actually missed about 90% of the target they could have hit. (3000 killed out of 40,000+ potential victims.) Like roaches, and many users of violence, they are persistant--but not bright.

What did they want to do?
Cause kaos, grief, a bit of revenge and piss the US off.
Rightly or wrongly, many would think they achived far more than thier expectations.

The 'victims' list is still growing and looks like it will be a long while before it stops.

[sneuman]

Hellosailor:

The issue here is whether to carry guns aboard your vessel. Fullstop. The original poster said he'd carry regardless, and expressed NO desire to debate gun control.

YOU posted incorrect information. The stats may not be to your liking, but I assure you they are accurate (U.S. CDC) - I can't help that.

To reiterate (CDC stats for 2003 - most recent year for complete state - Gun deaths):

U.S. total
164,002 people killed by fire arms
291m people
Rate: 56.39

Mass:
2,728 killed
6.5m people
Rate: 42.4

Hawaii:
597 killed
1.25m people
Rate: 47.47

Florida:
11,336 killed
17m people
Rate: 66.61

So, as you can see, not only is Florida's rate lower than other states, but it is actually much higher than the national average.

If you want to check for yourself, here's the link:
http://webapp.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_sy.html

Enough said.

[CaptainK]

Nice weblink, Scott.

Too bad it doesn't go all the way to last year!!

[sneuman]

Ok, ignore the raw numbers in my above post (i misread the link) - but the jist is still the same:

U.S. 2003 total:
30,136/290m ppl/rate: 10.36

Mass total:
204/6.4m/rate: 3.17

Hawaii total:
37/1.2m/rate: 2.94

Florida total:
1,940/17m/rate: 11.40

SO, again Florida higher than national average, way higher than Mass, Hawaii

[eskfreedom]

I just wanted some info and Gord gave it to me.Thanks again Gord.
You guys are a bunch of flippin wankers arguing about stupid stuff that doesn't change anything.I really didn't want to start a gun debate.That's what you guys have done to this thread.Thanks alot.As far as guns go, it doesn't really matter what you think, I think, or anybody thinks.The facts are, guns are in the world in every country, in every state and every town no matter were you go. There's one somewere close by laying dormant waiting for sombody to pull the trigger. None of your bickering will EVER change that.Yeah,we can make more laws to lower gun deaths, we can restrict there availabilty but that's still not going to change the fact that guns are everywhere.I do not live in fear, I am not paronoid, I am not predjudice, I am not afraid of any man, gun or no gun. I don't ever want to harm another.I just want to be free and sail around the world with my family.As long as people have guns.....I'll have guns...period.