How Many EPIRBS and Liferafts Ever Save Lives ?

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by waterworldly

Just recently I needed to change the battery on my EPIRB, and it was quoted at $250, for a BATTERY. They don't make enough lubricant for these types of transactions.

It is not for the battery.

It is for the lawyers one will get if the battery (or o-ring) fails.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Appreciate you are new on CF (Welcome - if I did not say so before)....so fair enough that you have not twigged that the "Old" in my Member name refers not to my age, but to my location. (the place that "New Jersey" was named after - a small island off the coast of Northern France, sort of part of the UK, but not quite )....CF Membership being somewhat international, even if heavily US / Carribean Cruising based.

Apologies for chopping your post up a bit (but it is all there).

Originally Posted by SailorBill1954

News Flash....you do have regulatory items to be kept and maintained aboard a recreational vessel. Over here no regulatory items, zero, nadda, nuffink. Not even a requirement to register a boat, let alone have a licence. Perfectly legal to set sail from UK shores (and Old Jersey ) to the South Pole in a bathtub, equipped only with a plug......or even without . The only regulatory problem being if you stop off somewhere. Some places can be kinda funny on stuff .

These include

PFD's (life jackets) - I have 2, with tethers. Anymore is up to crew to bring, in real life I am not very sociable so (leaving aside my dock bound status) that never an issue. When on OPB I take my own.
flares - I've got some, of varying vintages I will update with some current White and probably some orange smoke....at some point.
a horn or other sound making device - I've got one of those, came with the boat - I probably would have bought one anyway. probably
fire extinguishers (depending on size of vessel) - Yeah, I've got 3 or 4 of varying vintages (but all with pressure guages showing good). A couple are not even old .
and in some cases a VHF radio. - I must confess have been pondering whether to re-install the VHF, I will probably still be pondering after I first leave the harbour.

This last item will be especially important for Dave when he eventually finds himself in distress because he left the dock without those VERY expensive safety items. On that note, we basically only have the RNLI - and at present I have religous differences with them (apparently they still cast spells or summit over there boats - by men in dresses ). Would I call them out? (if I had a VHF onboard!). Doubtful, but they would probably arrive if I put a call out for assistance from anyone nearby.

The reason these items are regulatory is because too many have lost lives needlessly at sea. Based on the comments here, the Coast Guard will still have a busy schedule ahead of them. Save your money Dave and please stay at the dock where you belong. Over here, notwithstanding the total absence of regulations we don't have bodies washing up on the beach by the hundreds every week (and there be over 100,000 of us). Maybe because folks here, on average, not dumber than rocks? Having said that, we do of course have our exceptions - but they don't seem to have boats.

And try to stay away from FOX news. It's obvious. I much prefer CNN and the BBC, always interesting to see what I am meant to be thinking.

The above might sound a bit on the reckless side, but truth be told I am very conservative at sea - but that mostly about being 110% certain of my own boat (no sinkee = no liferaft deployment) and being aware of my capabilities - including not being immortal. My sailing voyaging CV certainly not as extensive as others here on CF, but covers 40 odd years (man and boy - lol!) - and mostly I have avoided killing myself.

On OPB, my approach usually centers around sticking finger in the air and whether likely to have beer onboard , plus where they will be going with the boat / what they (we) will be doing - and for the unknown boats / Skippers (even if I know them ashore) having a plan B if they turn into a Capt. Numpty, or fall overboard. or both . But what's life without a bit of risk......or beer .

Anyway, as I said - welcome to CF - notwithstanding the above I am not knocking your approach (or anyone else's) nor am I saying mine is better. Well, it is for me - but certainly not something I am peddling to others, just saying (to the thread) that other approaches can be taken..........The best bit of the safety gear is the Skipper's Noodle.

[rgscpat]

The Victoria-Maui race list is one of the tougher ones. It does require a life raft and an EPIRB. It specifies requirements for the raft, its contents, and the ability to launch and board the raft. It recommends that the EPIRB be GPS enabled. And, it suggests that an AIS transponder will be required for participants in 2014. Clearly, the organizers think a raft and a beacon are necessary for a 2300-nm ocean-crossing race through potentially severe conditions. Also, the checklist is long and detailed enough that the very process of working through it should be educational for many sailors.

[bobconnie]

Well I sorta think all those requirements for the offshore race boats are really requirements to keep the Lawyers from sueing them for most of the mistakes the sailors will and have made during the races of this sort !! the ruleing bodys are so afraid of being sued you would not believe it !! This is just my 2 cents and may be right or wrong but its my thoughts on this thread !!

[Lt.]

I don't have any sailing experience, but I've formed the following opinions from a lot of reading.

-a lot of fishermen in Alaska would be dead if it weren't for life rafts and eperbs
-quite a few cruisers/racers would be if it weren't for rafts and eperbs.
- what's more expensive, a persons life, or an eperbs and life raft?
- noaa's webs site with the number of people saved by eperbs
http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/
In 2012 at sea alone in us 62 people saved.
2011 ~122 saved at sea in us alone
2010 ~295 saved at sea in us alone
2009 ~195 saved at sea in us alone
All together, 30,000+ people world wide saved since 1982
I've heard a certain person say eperbs and rafts encourage risky behavior, I disagree, I think its more like car or boat insurance. It's there if you need it, but you be careful not to need. Though if you ever need it, you wouldn't want to be without it. Eg. Your boat goes down-you can be treading water/floating with a life is jacket orrrrr...... sitting tight in a raft waiting on a rescue you know will come eventually. Like if you get into q boating/car accident, $20,000$ out of your pocket, or $1,000-2,000$ or so for deductible. You wouldn't want to be with out it if you needed it.
Better to have and not need, than need and not have.

But a critical mistake I've read about, is people abandoning a boat and then getting rescued and then finding their abandoned boat still floating later on. So one thing not to do is abandon the boat without it actually sinking, as your abandoning. Your safer on the boat than you are on the raft unless the railing is in the water.

[RUSTYNAIL]

Area A1. I come from the dark side of boating, looking into cases where people didn't make it home alive from much less than 30 km's. After investigating marine accidents, I always thought, darn these people would still be alive if they just had an EPIRB with them. Area A1 is safe if you can guarantee that you have a good vhf radio with a strong battery to call for assistance and a gps to give the exact location. The vessel's batteries and antennas ares usually the first problem when you have a disasterous situation. The best answer is still an EPIRB. Next best is a PLB with a strobe that floats. The EPIRBs continue to get smaller and cheaper.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by bobconnie

Well I sorta think all those requirements for the offshore race boats are really requirements to keep the Lawyers from sueing them for most of the mistakes the sailors will and have made during the races of this sort !! the ruleing bodys are so afraid of being sued you would not believe it !! This is just my 2 cents and may be right or wrong but its my thoughts on this thread !!

I agree with that.

Plus these folks are racing.

When things got rough for me (hardly ever since I don't have long distance experience) I slowed down.

Racers speed up right?

Asking for it they are.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by Lt.

I don't have any sailing experience, but I've formed the following opinions from a lot of reading.

-a lot of fishermen in Alaska would be dead if it weren't for life rafts and eperbs
-quite a few cruisers/racers would be if it weren't for rafts and eperbs.
- what's more expensive, a persons life, or an eperbs and life raft?
- noaa's webs site with the number of people saved by eperbs
NOAA - Search and Rescue Satellite Aided Tracking - Welcome
In 2012 at sea alone in us 62 people saved.
2011 ~122 saved at sea in us alone
2010 ~295 saved at sea in us alone
2009 ~195 saved at sea in us alone
All together, 30,000+ people world wide saved since 1982
I've heard a certain person say eperbs and rafts encourage risky behavior, I disagree, I think its more like car or boat insurance. It's there if you need it, but you be careful not to need. Though if you ever need it, you wouldn't want to be without it. Eg. Your boat goes down-you can be treading water/floating with a life is jacket orrrrr...... sitting tight in a raft waiting on a rescue you know will come eventually. Like if you get into q boating/car accident, $20,000$ out of your pocket, or $1,000-2,000$ or so for deductible. You wouldn't want to be with out it if you needed it.
Better to have and not need, than need and not have.

But a critical mistake I've read about, is people abandoning a boat and then getting rescued and then finding their abandoned boat still floating later on. So one thing not to do is abandon the boat without it actually sinking, as your abandoning. Your safer on the boat than you are on the raft unless the railing is in the water.

I don't have a lot of experience either but am way ahead of you in the reading/research dept. You will probably catch me in a day or so though.

But I hate those statistics.
What do they mean? If one thinks each of those was actually life saving I think one would be wrong. Some are just a couple in boat that ran out of gas. (in a busy area) I am not denying lives were saved but I think it is over dramatized.

Don't forget the stats are kept by those with an interest in "pushing" their interest, whether they make the stuff or respond to it.

Could be like the statistics in "alcohol related" automobile accidents. I read a research article on that a while back. The wreck gets there by someone putting an X in a check box.
One drunk passenger = checked box.
Case of beer in the back seat = checked box.
It was amazing. I wish I could give you the link.

Not saying lives aren't saved but there is enough Nanny.

P.S.
My last boat had all that stuff and good insurance. Those companies loved me too.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by RUSTYNAIL

Area A1. I come from the dark side of boating, looking into cases where people didn't make it home alive from much less than 30 km's. After investigating marine accidents, I always thought, darn these people would still be alive if they just had an EPIRB with them. Area A1 is safe if you can guarantee that you have a good vhf radio with a strong battery to call for assistance and a gps to give the exact location. The vessel's batteries and antennas ares usually the first problem when you have a disasterous situation. The best answer is still an EPIRB. Next best is a PLB with a strobe that floats. The EPIRBs continue to get smaller and cheaper.

I am sure there is a lot of that.

One I know of quite well in detail was the football players that were so ignorant that they ignored weather, others advice and were clueless. Maybe if they had an epirb some would have been plucked by a chopper. But, you know, if your anchor is stuck and won't come out you just don't tie it to the transom and attempt to pull it out with some hundreds of odd horsepowers. (Is that a sentence?)

Like DOJ says "The best bit of the safety gear is the Skipper's Noodle. "

Though why he would not at least have a radio I don't know unless he is really that anti-social.

[hellosailor]

"quoted at $250, for a BATTERY."
Therapy, last time I called a distributor for a Lithium EPIRB battery pack (3 large cells) it was about $175 from the distributor directly. Non-marine price.
I'm sure the businesses get a break on that, but yes, the damned batteries themselves are that damned expensive. Nice business to be in, huh?

[Viking Sailor]

ARC EPIRB replacement lithium batteries. Three required ($13.71 ea with wire leads):

Saft LO 26 SX Lithium Battery | SEPBatteries.com

[RUSTYNAIL]

I would be concerned about changing my own batteries in a 406 MHz EPIRB. There is a lot more to it than just plugging in a new battery like we did with the old 121.5 beacons. . The battery change also includes checking or replacing the o ring, some kind of a pressure/leak check when it's back together, and a print out of the EPIRB's transmission test and the hexidecimal code. The price of the battery change and new hydro release for Cat I EPIRBs makes more sense to purchase a new EPIRB if you can afford it. Technology has changed in the new 406 beacons a lot in the past 5 + years when your EPIRB was new . If your EPIRB was outside in the sun for 5 years the electronics and plastic case have probably been through a lot of temperature changes.

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by Therapy

I agree with that.

Plus these folks are racing.

When things got rough for me (hardly ever since I don't have long distance experience) I slowed down.

Racers speed up right?

Asking for it they are.

It is amazing what is on your car that has evolved from racing, starting with seat belts and radial tires.

Having cruised and raced (I started by racing on a Tartan 10) I often feel safer on race boats.

Racers will often reduce sail sooner than cruisers because they know a flatter boat is faster. Racers go as faster as possible in the prevailing conditions. Anyone can sail big wind, great crews can sail in light air.

I used to race cars too on the rally circuit as a co-driver. I always felt safer in a rally car than a street car, especially after being in some serious high speed accidents.

I am delivering a Vic Maui race boat back to Vancouver this summer. It is not comfortable, but it is safe. The comfort can be fixed easily. For example, the dodger is being stored in the V berth for the race and installed for the delivery.

Race cars and boats involve the same philosophy: you cannot finish first if you do not finish.

[jackdale]

Here are the proposed safety standards for recreational boating schools in Canada.

http://www.sailing.ca/images/uploads...02011%2006.pdf

Check Annex 1 on page 6.

The fourth column is for offshore courses; life rafts and EPIRBs, among other items are listed.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by Therapy

Could be like the statistics in "alcohol related" automobile accidents. I read a research article on that a while back. The wreck gets there by someone putting an X in a check box.
One drunk passenger = checked box.
Case of beer in the back seat = checked box.
It was amazing. I wish I could give you the link.

Not saying lives aren't saved but there is enough Nanny.

At the risk of thread drift (but, hey, it's page 30 ) - one thing that gets edited out of the "alcohol related" automobile accident statistics is that the vast majority of "drunk" drivers not only don't kill anyone (self or others) but they don't even have accidents. Probably because most "drunk" drivers are not actually drunk...........and that any idiot can drive a car (witness many folks on the road who are sober ).

Of course not saying that driving drunk / DUI is a good idea - just that it is not as bad as implied (somewhere between going postal and kiddy fiddling). Driving Drunk doesn't kill - hitting stuff does.