I Can't Believe I'm Starting a Gun Thread

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Pete7

I haven't used the Mk 5 but if the Mk 4 is similar to the military issue version which we also called Mk 4, then at that price a box full on board would be very useful to have. Attach a small lead weight and they make excellent diver recall device too.

In terms of power I have met an instructor with 3 fingers missing when he didn't let go quickly enough. They will also flatten a standard aluminium mess tin completely flat if placed on top of a real thunderflash.

I am surprised you can buy them in the UK.

Thunderflash Mark 5 TLSFx Pyrotechnics | ISO Approved | Milsim Pyro | Paintball

Thanks; hot tip!

They are also made as 12 ga shells which can be fired from a shotgun.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

"Bear Country" is apparently the whole area.

Ittoqqortoormiit is the number one place in Greenland for polar bear conflicts with multiple incidents a year -- 6 polar bears killed by humans defending themselves just in 2012, just in Ittoqqortoormiit. So it's not "occasional trips"; it's the whole cruise, and the issue is not a joke.

Did/Do not think it is.. that's why I said even with a guide I would want to carry my own gun.. there's places outside Greenland and the States with dangerous wildlife on the large size.. and I've seen so called hunters behave like the crowd on 'Friends' when charged.

[Dockhead]

This is useless speculation before going to the course, but I am finding it fun reading and thinking about choosing the right gun for this.

It's interesting to me that half the people on here tell me that I'll die if I try to use a shotgun on an ice bear, and the other half tell me that a shotgun is the way to go.

A friend of mine who is a sailor and gun nut wrote to me to say not to use a shotgun, but if I do, use Brenneke slugs.

So I read up on them, and it seems that they are pretty fearsome, compared favorably to rounds from a 45-70 big game gun.

Talked about here:

https://www.glocktalk.com/threads/wh...g-down.228530/

Q: "What will a Brenneke 12-gauge slug bring down?"

A: Anything you fire it at. Seriously. I have long been a proponent of this cartridge as a result of my observations of having shot game with it. I use the 2 3/4" inch load however. The slugs are not designed to expand, and significant deformation is not noted even when heavy bone is encountered. It is a hard alloy. The result is usually a one inch, perfectly straight wound channel. These slugs are seldom recovered from deer sized animals, even when shot lengthwise. I have seen over 4 feet of penetration through a single animal. Because of the squared off shoulder of the design, energy transfer and tissue destruction seem fairly optimally balanced with the extreme penetration. And they seem to kick a whole lot less than comprable domestically produced slugs. Accuracy with the shorter 2 3/4" loads is astounding. Out of a smoothbore slug barrel, they litterally land on top of one another at 50 yards. For big game under 100 steps, it is tops.


"The Brenneke Rottweil magnums (for rifled barrels) are 600 grain slugs, with a muzzle velocity of 1760 fps. I thinks this makes 3000 ft/lbs at the muzzle. Trumps nearly all 45-70 loads.

"As for real world comparisons, a friend and myself shot two pigs in the last two weeks.
"His went down with a 300 gr factory 45-70 like it was hit by a truck.
"Mine went down with the above slug like it was hit by a larger truck.
There is a tremendous amount of shock imparted to the pig from this slug round. When I get my pics back, I will post them. My shot placement between the neck and shoulder was by no means perfect, but the pig died on the spot."


If a shotgun can be made suitable for this, it will solve a bunch of problems with permissions, and also, cost.

[hellosailor]

Dockhead-
Something to consider about unconventional calibers and rounds: They won't be sold at your local supplier. Which is not to say you couldn't get whatever you need, somewhere, but with a conventional round like 30-06 practically any gun shop or "general store" that supplies hunters will be stocking them. With more specialized rounds, you will have to chase down a local supply and stow them on board before you leave, and sometimes just bringing ammunition across borders is problematic.
Not saying it can't or shouldn't be done--but it needs to be looked into. And if you're using a specialized 12 gauge round, remember to take a couple of boxes to the range to see how it shoots, in the gun you'll be shooting with.
There are all sorts of 12g rounds, including "breeching rounds" meant to tear off door hinges. Rubber bullets, armor piercing, you name it.
But if the Greenland rules say "Rifle", a shotgun won't make it. And since big game (moose, elk, bear, mountain sheep) hunters seem to prefer "rifle"...maybe the 12g is just as good when you're only planning to use it up close. If it will meet the regulation.

[Fiveslide]

Secondary to and along with the shotgun, I'd pick up a Judge Public Defender Poly and load it with something like the image below. Check out the exit wound on that pumpkin, that will have the bear bleeding out in a hurry! If it gets past your shotgun, just point the judge as the bear gets close and start squeezing, unload all five into it.

[Terra Nova]

So much bad information in this thread it should become a sticky.

[Juho]

Originally Posted by weavis

I have seen active combat service and to the best of my recollection, the screaming continued to be a large part of the experience.

Police has nowadays sound based devices for crowd control. It would make a lot of sense to use such devices also for polar bear control. I'm sure polar bears do not want to destroy their hearing, and will therefore avoid such noisy pray . That's one more tool for the recommended arsenal.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Fiveslide

Secondary to and along with the shotgun, I'd pick up a Judge Public Defender Poly and load it with something like the image below. Check out the exit wound on that pumpkin! If it gets past your shotgun, just point the judge as the bear gets close and start squeezing, unload all five into it.

A the distance a Judge would be of any use you would be a bear meal.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Juho

Police has nowadays sound based devices for crowd control. It would make a lot of sense to use such devices also for polar bear control. I'm sure polar bears do not want to destroy their hearing, and will therefore avoid such noisy pray . That's one more tool for the recommended arsenal.

Yes, that's bear bangers.

I have read that they are very effective when used correctly. It sounds to me like scaring them off with bear bangers would be Plan A in any case, and very likely to succeed, it seems like. Blowing the bear away by shooting it through the brain with a 45-70 or Brenneke slug would be a last resort.

There are a variety of bear bangers available, and it sounds like the 12 ga ones would be particularly good since you could aim them better. Or maybe it would be possible to buy an actual flash/bang grenade -- that would surely be the ultimate bear banger.

In any case, this will take study and training to be sure of being able to do it right.

[Dockhead]

Similar discussion, but among gun nuts rather than sailors:

Polar bear defense


The different opinions are similar to what has been expressed here, but there's a lot of support for using 12 ga with slugs.

Yet another advantage for me, personally, to using a 12 ga is that I have quite a bit of experience with them and from childhood. I won't be learning a new gun from scratch, and there is much less risk of getting confused with the gun in a tense moment. I've shot with 30.06's (my dad had one), and I'm a good shot with it, but I've never shot a big game rifle and I think the learning curve might not be so shallow. I'm ready to put in some range time, but I only have half a year.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Dockhead-
Something to consider about unconventional calibers and rounds: They won't be sold at your local supplier. Which is not to say you couldn't get whatever you need, somewhere, but with a conventional round like 30-06 practically any gun shop or "general store" that supplies hunters will be stocking them. With more specialized rounds, you will have to chase down a local supply and stow them on board before you leave, and sometimes just bringing ammunition across borders is problematic.
Not saying it can't or shouldn't be done--but it needs to be looked into. And if you're using a specialized 12 gauge round, remember to take a couple of boxes to the range to see how it shoots, in the gun you'll be shooting with.
There are all sorts of 12g rounds, including "breeching rounds" meant to tear off door hinges. Rubber bullets, armor piercing, you name it.
But if the Greenland rules say "Rifle", a shotgun won't make it. And since big game (moose, elk, bear, mountain sheep) hunters seem to prefer "rifle"...maybe the 12g is just as good when you're only planning to use it up close. If it will meet the regulation.

Thanks; that's a good point. I would be careful of course to organize supply well and long before departure.

And for sure I would practice a lot with whatever setup I eventually choose. That's half the fun anyway! On the range here, and probably do some shooting every day when we're out in the field. We will need a good supply of ammunition.

[Kelkara]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

My read of the regulations that dock posted is that they are 'required' to have a gun on board while cruising almost all the west coast (except for two 'tourist zones'), not just while ashore in the parks.

My reading of the regs was different ...

They are only REQUIRED to have a gun in The National Park ... which is essentially all of the East coast North of 71N, but they are only RECOMMENDED to have a gun south of that.

They are REQUIRED to have an expedition permit for the all of the east coast (except for the two 'tourist zones'). But the firearm is not part of that requirement on the southern half of the coast.

They will need a Greenland firearms permit for whatever gun they bring ... If they are going to areas where they are required to have a gun then the rules say a 30-06 rifle ... but if he's only going to areas where a gun is recommended, then maybe they can choose a shotgun ... but it would be a good idea to ask the Greenland authorities to make sure he can get a permit/ammo for it ... although the rules for a 30-06 is probably because that is what the locals think is the best idea.

[MLC]

Dockhead, go on this NRA training course you mentioned. It sounds perfect.

I have been hunting and shooting for 30 years. I have hunted in the US, Canada, South Africa, and Zimbabwe. I have not hunted dangerous game. Many of my family and friends have hunted Cape Buffalo, elephant, leopard, lion, black bears, and Kodiak bears. For your trip, I support the recommendations that others have made for a pump-action 12 gauge. I also support the recommendation that you carry two. I also support the recommendations for the marine versions of the Remington 870 or the Mossberg, though with adequate lubrication and storage I do not think the marine versions are a "must" have. I have done waterfowl hunting and other types of hunting in the rain and snow. Rust has not been a major issue. I own an 870 Express and an 870 Express Super Magnum Synthetic. I have an extra rifled barrel and an extra rifled barrel with a low power scope. I also have a rifled choke tube. The barrels are easily interchangeable without any tools. In my experience, the 870s are reliable in cold, wet, snowy, and muddy conditions. With the right slugs/sabots, I would bet my life that an 870 would be adequate to drop a charging polar bear within 50 yards. My guess is that 00 shot would turn the bear but would probably not be adequate to drop it. Obviously one keeps shooting until the bear turns or drops.

I own a bolt action 30-06 and would also trust that gun with my life but I would prefer a 12 gauge pump with 5 or 6 slug rounds for a charging polar bear.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Thanks; that's a good point. I would be careful of course to organize supply well and long before departure.

And for sure I would practice a lot with whatever setup I eventually choose. That's half the fun anyway! On the range here, and probably do some shooting every day when we're out in the field. We will need a good supply of ammunition.

I'm not sure the freeze factor from fare wouldn't be more of a concern than marksmanship?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Cadence

I'm not sure the freeze factor from fare wouldn't be more of a concern than marksmanship?

Typos? I can't figure out what this means.