I Can't Believe I'm Starting a Gun Thread

[ClassicalBGP]

Originally Posted by siamese

Sorry, but by that reasoning, you should ask them about kitchen remodeling, yoga mats, and pet supplies.

Which defeats the purpose of a topic specific forum.

I can help out on the kitchen remodeling, but I would have to get the wife involved for the yoga mat questions.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by goat

Double barreled 600 nitro express. You probably won't need the 700. $25,000 for the rifle. Used.
Attachment 162858Attachment 162859

Jesus, that's a cannon.

I'm sure it would do the job, although it would probably break my shoulder in the process. Little out of my budget, and I might have some permitting issues with that

[Tetepare]

I'm a firm believer that it's better to hit something with a small bullet than miss something with a large bullet.

Given that if one even thinks about shooting a polar bear, said bear is probably close enough to give me a scare. Besides the fact that they are said to sneak up on people. Dunno about you, but if I'm scared I may shoot at my most accurate- and I've shot up to 40,000 rounds annually.

Then, with bolt actions and slides, one must (1) have time to get another round in the chamber and (2) remember to do so. The latter (or rather, lack thereof) has been cited anecdotally enough to make it a real problem for most people.

I ran some quick numbers. You'll excuse me for using imperial measurements, please, but you'll get the idea.

A polar bear with a 1 foot wide skull is 20 feet away from the shooter. A deviation of less than 1.5 degrees in either direction will miss entirely.

Get that? 1.5 degrees off aim and you are done. This ain't Hollywierd.

How fast can a polar bear cover 20 feet? If it's at least as fast as a human you don't get a second shot, even if you remember to rack the slide.

That said, if it were my butt I'd use an autoloading (that means "semi auto") shotgun. The first round would be 00 buck. After that, maybe a slug, but I'd probably do another 00 buck.

AFTER I expended two 00 buck and survived, THEN I'd be happy to discuss Brenekke slugs, 30.06 vs 7.62x51, the miracle of killing a bear with 9mm, etc. etc. etc.

[Biomed]

Seen some sound advice to help you understand the limitations of firearms. Your questions regarding what guns would be appropriate for that area are very fair. I have lived and hunted in Southern Africa most of my life and chaired a section of a Hunting Association. I was often asked the very questions by a new member for a "dangerous game stopper" , just in case....
I have had to track and dispatch leopard, hippo and other game turned rogue. Often walked with my 375 H&H in the Timbavati and faced mock charges from lion during daylight hours. They could be turned with waiving, shouting and a warning shot. At night, business, no mock charges. We often had Americans with outrageously kicking rifles coming to hunt with us. We made them shoot paper soup plates at 50-70 yards, to see if they could shoot. After the 1st or so shot, that rifle caused permanent built in flinch and some did not shoot at all or borrowed a more moderate one from us, shooting well with it. Lesson is: learn to shoot what is comfortable and learn to handle recoil. It is not that bad ,really. I emigrated to the UK and hunt here and in Europe, and at least once a year at home in South Africa. Also sailed to high latitudes and was asked to look after ourselves with a firearm when going ashore. My wife shoots well, too, and carries the .308 win or a 12 bore shotgun with premium slugs. A 375 H&H is the minimum calibre permitted in South Africa for dangerous game. In Other countries around there, they allow 338 Winchester. There is ballistically very little between them in practice. Now the kicker: with either calibre, no charge from an elephant has ever been stopped, hunter survival rate: zero. The recoil is similar to a 12 bore shotgun with a potent slug. A 458 Winchester (or larger) stops a charge in only 50% of incidents. There is a huge difference between killing dangerous game when stalking and stopping a charge from a powerful, huge, determined predator with a single shot at short range. Let alone a wounded one. Other than with a large calibre "double rifle", and these cost mega bucks, count on not getting a second shot. Semi automatic rifles are not allowed, and the recommended garand (in some posts) is one. In my previous reply to your question, I made some recommendations. I'LL add one: with the rifle of your choice, with some sound instruction and lots of range time, try this.
If you can score it, you may have a chance at scoring a meaningful hit on a charging polar bear at sort range. If you can't, get a guide or join a tour, as I suggested earlier. No shame in that at all. Many Hunters tracking rogue, or wounded dangerous animals had to pass this test, me too. Or a similar test. Stand with your rifle at the bottom of a slope or hill. That is your backstop. A friend rolls a small car tyre down hill toward you, gets to safe cover, and clears you for the shot at the rolling and bouncing tyre. Hit it with ONE single shot at about 30 yards, see if you can get a second shot off. If the first one is not a hit, you're toast. A word on scopes: use a good "red dot" or a TRUE 1x scope. Try to shoot with both eyes open. Not everyone can. There is a lot of funny info in the replies to your question. I have lost friends, dead or scarred for life, who bit off more than they could chew. Hunting or shooting done within your ability may save your life out there, but it is utterly unforgiving of incompetence or negligence. My invitation to visit and try different calibres stands. My advice too: avoid having to shoot at all cost, and if unavoidable, have a professional or experienced guide do the honours. Best shoot with a camera! Fair winds!

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by Melissa36

Do you know what they are actually using when they report that a ranger tasered a bear? What do zoos use?

Seems there is some research being done on the subject (though this article is rather dated):

http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm...rticles_id=450

[estarzinger]

If you want to know what is/will be available to buy locally - I think it would be pretty easy to call or e-mail Pilersuisoq - they have general store's in the two east coast towns.

Just for fun . . . . Here is a photo of the gun selection from a store of theirs in one of the smaller west coast towns.



And this was (one of several) gun selections in Nuuk (if you had to it would be a relatively short air delivery from nuuk to the west coast clearance port).



I am still in the 'personally would not take one' camp, but I suspect I developed more comfort ignoring regulations than Dock

[Tetepare]

Originally Posted by siamese

Sorry, but by that reasoning, you should ask them about kitchen remodeling, yoga mats, and pet supplies.

Which defeats the purpose of a topic specific forum.

What do you want to know?

Last week and this we ripped out the lower floor and kitchen ceiling, replaced all the rotting copper pipe with PEX. We elected to spend the extra bucks for red/blue for hot/cold. Used the solid clamps, since sorry I don't trust the push-on sharkbite connections.

We'll replace the ceiling with drywall (preferably not made in China.) The current trend for finish is NOT stippling or anything but a semi-gloss smooth finish. Popular cabinetry is cherry. Oak is so 1980s.

What else do you want to know about kitchen remodeling?

PET SUPPLIES? Amazon. However, our rabbit does not like the new pellets as much as the hay. And it has to be Timothy hay, not alfalpha because that makes them fat.

We can discuss the difference between the Moorish Idol and Heniochus.

Or the fact that Ornithoptera victoria will interbreed with Ornithoptera urvilleanus, which makes on question the firm distinction current science has established between species/ subspecies.

HP printers are awesome, but HP plays a good game and screws you on supplies- run out of a color you don't use much and the friggin' thing won't print even black.

What sucked is that the BMW S52 motor was detuned in USA but not Canada, but luckily the S54 took care of that...till they started exploding.

He may not have done the right thing, but Benedict Arnold really did get screwed by the US government.

What else do you want to know? That's the beauty of large, well rounded web forums- you've got experts in almost everything!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Biomed

Seen some sound advice to help you understand the limitations of firearms. Your questions regarding what guns would be appropriate for that area are very fair. I have lived and hunted in Southern Africa most of my life and chaired a section of a Hunting Association. I was often asked the very questions by a new member for a "dangerous game stopper" , just in case....
I have had to track and dispatch leopard, hippo and other game turned rogue. Often walked with my 375 H&H in the Timbavati and faced mock charges from lion during daylight hours. They could be turned with waiving, shouting and a warning shot. At night, business, no mock charges. We often had Americans with outrageously kicking rifles coming to hunt with us. We made them shoot paper soup plates at 50-70 yards, to see if they could shoot. After the 1st or so shot, that rifle caused permanent built in flinch and some did not shoot at all or borrowed a more moderate one from us, shooting well with it. Lesson is: learn to shoot what is comfortable and learn to handle recoil. It is not that bad ,really. I emigrated to the UK and hunt here and in Europe, and at least once a year at home in South Africa. Also sailed to high latitudes and was asked to look after ourselves with a firearm when going ashore. My wife shoots well, too, and carries the .308 win or a 12 bore shotgun with premium slugs. A 375 H&H is the minimum calibre permitted in South Africa for dangerous game. In Other countries around there, they allow 338 Winchester. There is ballistically very little between them in practice. Now the kicker: with either calibre, no charge from an elephant has ever been stopped, hunter survival rate: zero. The recoil is similar to a 12 bore shotgun with a potent slug. A 458 Winchester (or larger) stops a charge in only 50% of incidents. There is a huge difference between killing dangerous game when stalking and stopping a charge from a powerful, huge, determined predator with a single shot at short range. Let alone a wounded one. Other than with a large calibre "double rifle", and these cost mega bucks, count on not getting a second shot. Semi automatic rifles are not allowed, and the recommended garand (in some posts) is one. In my previous reply to your question, I made some recommendations. I'LL add one: with the rifle of your choice, with some sound instruction and lots of range time, try this.
If you can score it, you may have a chance at scoring a meaningful hit on a charging polar bear at sort range. If you can't, get a guide or join a tour, as I suggested earlier. No shame in that at all. Many Hunters tracking rogue, or wounded dangerous animals had to pass this test, me too. Or a similar test. Stand with your rifle at the bottom of a slope or hill. That is your backstop. A friend rolls a small car tyre down hill toward you, gets to safe cover, and clears you for the shot at the rolling and bouncing tyre. Hit it with ONE single shot at about 30 yards, see if you can get a second shot off. If the first one is not a hit, you're toast. A word on scopes: use a good "red dot" or a TRUE 1x scope. Try to shoot with both eyes open. Not everyone can. There is a lot of funny info in the replies to your question. I have lost friends, dead or scarred for life, who bit off more than they could chew. Hunting or shooting done within your ability may save your life out there, but it is utterly unforgiving of incompetence or negligence. My invitation to visit and try different calibres stands. My advice too: avoid having to shoot at all cost, and if unavoidable, have a professional or experienced guide do the honours. Best shoot with a camera! Fair winds!

I'm sorry I didn't acknowledge your kind offer to go shooting, and in fact I would very much like to take you up on that. Where are you in the UK? We can discuss by PM.

There is no practical way to have a guide with us for the reasons which were stated earlier.

So I think I will have to do this myself. Two of my crew have a lot of military experience; one actual combat experience. So two or three of us will be armed, which I think improves our odds.

From my reading, I gather that in 90% or more of encounters with polar bears, it is possible to simply scare them off. So killing one whilst it is charging at me is definitely not Plan A. We will acquire a bunch of bear bangers and practice with them.

From my reading, the locals use 12 gauge shotguns with slugs and 30.06 hunting rifles. A dozen or more polar bears are killed every year in Greenland by people defending themselves, so considering the tiny population of Greenland, these conflicts are pretty common so it is important to be ready for it. However, the armed person always wins -- I have read a few accounts of people killed by polar bears in recent years, but none of the victims were armed. So with respect I don't think that a polar bear conflict requiring shooting is comparable to a charging elephant.

But I'm certainly going to get the training and do the homework and make sure that I'm as ready as I can be.

[boatman61]

Where are these encounters.. and are they with locals.. or newbies with guns.
If your going to be hiking in remote regions it will be a different ball game from bears scavenging on the outskirts of human habitations.
They are patient and will lie still by a seal holes for a long time for their prey.. they will stalk you and are clever enough to go around and ahead to lie in wait for the prefect moment to ambush you.
Personally I would put their skills and rank of danger on a par with a man eating Bengal Tiger.. another animal not to be underestimated by a man with a gun.
You are a novice on their territory.. and they know it.

[Biomed]

Thanks for that! I mentioned it to illustrate how different things are when hunting and stopping a charge from a very large dangerous determined animal. We have never had to shoot a polar bear and I hope that it never comes to that! The shotgun launched 12 gauge "bangers " we use in South Africa to move,mostly, lion, sort of have a parabolic flight path, more or less towards the target. Aiming? Not with those things! They do not fly far, about some20_30 yards tops, with wind much less. But they always worked on them. No recoil at all. It is basically a small blob of fireworks flying out the barrel with hardly any weight. I have been charged by a leopard, which had gone rogue catching dogs in a small kraal (village). My partner was at an angle behind me and shot it when it launched itself at me. We had been tracking it and knew we were close. Never saw or heard it coming. It was a close. He let it have both barrels, I turned around and got off one 375 H&H in its chest. Just to show you how fast and unexpectedly things can to persuade even for experienced hunters. It had been shot before and wounded by 2 German hunters who kept quiet about it. Reading posts about wounding and then not killing a polar bear worry me. Any idea what would happen to the next bunch of people a wounded bear would run into? Or starvation death for the bear, after " blowing its head off" with a shotgun loaded with 8 or so pellets?
Looks like you have crew who were at some stage of their life competent with a rifle. Small calibre (.233 rem). Very different from 30 cal or larger. We have seen polar bear from a distance and either stayed on board or got back to the dink and moved away. We never allowed the bears to get to action distance, simply by backing away fast. We live in Aberdeenshire, Scotland now and I have shooting rights over 2000 acres of Crown property, about 1.5 hours from here and some 5000 acres belonging to a patient some 2.5 hours drive. Both have safe areas for safely sighting in rifles. Nearest Airport is Dyce (Aberdeen). For experience with shotgun slugs, there are specialised ranges in the southern part of the UK with pop up targets. Nice training! Please do let me know when you could pop up, I need some warning on account of my Patients having booked procedures about 6 weeks ahead.
Any 30 cal (308, 3006) with PREMIUM bullets will give you reliable penetration and expansion in such a large and big boned animal.
For practical purposes, I have seen little difference between them on short range shots, even though the 3006 shot 180 gr bullets Vs the 165 gr of the 308. Similar weight, species and size animals. But with PREMIUM bullets. They cost a bit more, but will be way more reliable on dangerous game, and do not break up when striking bone.
Fair winds!

[Midnight Son]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Where are these encounters.. and are they with locals.. or newbies with guns.
If your going to be hiking in remote regions it will be a different ball game from bears scavenging on the outskirts of human habitations.
They are patient and will lie still by a seal holes for a long time for their prey.. they will stalk you and are clever enough to go around and ahead to lie in wait for the prefect moment to ambush you.
Personally I would put their skills and rank of danger on a par with a man eating Bengal Tiger.. another animal not to be underestimated by a man with a gun.
You are a novice on their territory.. and they know it.

Right you are, these people posting, are thinking they will have enough time to line up a good shot.
As I said in my first post. They are the top of their food chain. Humans = snack.

[weavis]

I did a bit of mathematics.

A 1600lb PB can run at you at 25 miles per hour.

In real terms you have ONE SECOND for it to cover 36 feet. What if there are two or three doing it simultaneously? From different directions?

I think you need to be keeping the bears as far away from you as possible.. The internet is a wonderful place to learn what happened to OTHERS and what they did, but when it comes to us, the story could be a different one.

A guide is worth his weight in your guests lives. He will know PB habits and when to make a decision to leave... that is worth the trip alone to return home in one piece..

For whatever reason, when Earth global systems go through a change, the normal food cycle changes and animals get hungry... PB dont give up so easy as in the past.. I believe in dealing with the now.

In the medical situation, Ive dealt with animal injuries. Teeth and claw wounds. Ive seen hair ripped clean off the scalp and huge chunks of flesh(meat) bitten away... Not Polar Bears but other large and powerful species.

I dont believe in percentage averages, and neither will you if your on the lower percentage. Polar Bear attacks are pretty low but Polar Bear harassment is on the rise.

Scaring them off sounds a good plan. If they are REALLY hungry... they will hang around.

You have 2 maybe 3 seconds with an attack 80 foot away whether he is bluffing or going to take home the meat.... In that two seconds you have to decide what to do and do it.

My colleague upset a wild pig one time. It charged him and knocked him off his feet and onto his back. His daughter and me went in with sticks because it would not stop attacking...it seemed unconcerned but did disappear back into the brush. In talking with Mel he said that he saw it in the distance, and then it was immediately on him... that fast.

As a physician, I always look at the worst possible outcome and then come to the now and do what I can to prevent that happening.

Its a very REAL and possible worst situation outcome. Minimise the odds the best you can but be prepared for dealing with what could be.

Im sure you will be given good advice by the boys on the ground.

Sounds a great trip.. Im not a lover of the cold or Polar Bears but love to watch it on Video...

PS.. in the unlikely event of it going tits up.. can I have your boat?

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by weavis

I did a bit of mathematics.

A 1600lb PB can run at you at 25 miles per hour.

In real terms you have ONE SECOND for it to cover 36 feet. What if there are two or three doing it simultaneously? From different directions?

....

Thats really intimidating math, imagine being in that situation....1600lbs coming at you fast and hungry...not good. And this is what it does for a living, it has evolved over mellinium to be effective...you are just a clumsy tourist on the ice.

There are classes of such massively powerful animals that you are just screwed if you get in their striking range...polar bears, great whites, really big crocs/gators.

I think situational awareness and never getting in that situation to begin with are far more effective strategies than an amateur with a big gun. As Biomed pointed out, such situations can easily go badly even for experienced pros.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by weavis

I always look at the worst possible outcome and then come to the now and do what I can to prevent that happening.

Bears are just one of many many potential safety risks.

If you attempted to address each and everyone of those many many conceivable risks you would need an aircraft carrier as your vessel (with its marine detail for security and helo fleet for SAR). Cumulatively that would be an unreasonable approach to cruising.

Regarding the specific risk management for these bears, my personal opinion & experience is that you can simple deal with them by being prudent and staying as far away as possible. I'v personally seen these bears (in northern Canada rather than Greenland) and have many friends who have seen them - none of us were attacked or eaten.

For a trip like this, there are other things I personally think Dock should focus his finite management attention on. . . . things which are rather more likely -
just the first 3 that come to mind . . . . serious ice, hard cold temperatures (we had a force 10 snow storm on june 4th) and harder weather than he has dealt with before.

[deblen]

Canadian Rangers in hi Arctic are eqpd with
Tikka (Colt) bolt action .308 180grain (7.62 NATO)

.308 & 30-06 have basically equivalent ballistics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Rangers

Len