I Can't Believe I'm Starting a Gun Thread

[delmarrey]

Back in the early 70s when I was in Alaska I carried a S&W .357 Magnum side arm and a 30-06 rifle.
I even drive across the Canadian border with them in my car. All I had to do was claim them and drive on.
Boy has times changed.

[flightlead404]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Depending on your proficiency and/or laws and regulations, you may be able to be okay with a high caliber handgun instead, which is much easier to carry around. Historically a .44 Magnum revolver is used but more and more people switch to a 10mm semi automatic with full load ammo (as opposed to the weak FBI load).

Personally I would not recommend an auto loader as a self-defense/emergency use weapon.

I would recommend a wheel gun.

All my carry guns are revolvers, and I've never had one fail to feed, fail to eject, stove pipe etc.

Self defense weapons tend to be unused, and are often abused, stored in ways in which they collect detritus that can cause the slide and other mechanisms to jam. Additionally storing the magazine fully loaded for extended periods can result in weakening of the spring, resulting in improper feeding/jamming.

Additionally, with an auto loader you have to make a choice between carrying it "locked and loaded" and ready to fire, which depending on how you carry it could be higher risk (what sort of holster etc), OR having to take extra time when you can least afford it to rack the slide.

A revolver is safe enough to throw off a 10 story building without it discharging but will go bang when you pull the trigger.

My carry guns are internal hammer DAO revolvers, but .38+P would be useless against a bear lol

I would consider my IHMSA load a bear (lol) minimum. .44 mag with 240gr fully jacketed hollow point, 27gr of W296 powder. This load exceeds SAAMI specs a little, can kill an adult hog at 200 yards, the recoil will knock an inexperienced adult on his/her ass, but unless you're lucky will likely just pee off a large griz or something.

The handgun needed to bring this power to bear (lol) will be a large, heavy weapon and need lots of practice to use well. I personally have very sore hands and wrists after firing the 40 rounds in a competition with my 8" Dan Wesson.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by delmarrey

Back in the early 70s when I was in Alaska I carried a S&W .357 Magnum side arm and a 30-06 rifle.
I even drive across the Canadian border with them in my car. All I had to do was claim them and drive on.
Boy has times changed.

And all that was needed was a drivers license.

[dannc]

Originally Posted by Delfin

I'd suggest anyone wondering about this look at the Rock Island VR80 shotgun. Don't let the appearance scare you - it is just a 12 gauge on a familiar platform. Slugs can definitely kill a polar or grizzly bear, but using shot first to the snout may well be sufficient. Being semi-auto, you can load the shot first, slugs next. If the shot doesn't deter, you are six quick finger pulls away from 6 slugs, which will kill most anything that has walked on earth since the cretaceous.

https://www.armscor.com/firearms-list/vr80-5rd-12ga

Smith and Wesson has this dual tube shotgun, https://www.smith-wesson.com/product/mp-12. When I first read about it, my first thought was it would be perfect for bear country. I think there is at least one other company with a dual tube shotgun but I can' remember the brand.

Anyway, there are two tubes so you could have a mix of rounds in the tubes. There is a selector button that, well, selects which tube to use. One could carry a warning round in the chamber, with more in one tube while the other tube has rounds to use if the warning shots don't drive off the bear.

Later,
Dan

[dannc]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

...
Historically a .44 Magnum revolver is used but more and more people switch to a 10mm semi automatic with full load ammo (as opposed to the weak FBI load). Most manufacturers have come out with 10mm guns because of their recent popularity. I recommend to get a full size heavy weight model to help control recoil. We opted for a Tanfoglio Witness 3 which is a CZ clone (CZ does not have an option for 10mm). I can shoot a score as good as with my 9mm CZ Shadow 2 competition gun so it’s amazing.

The problem with 10mm is that its energy level is at the low end of the 44 Magnum round and for the big Brown and Polar bears, I would be uneasy with even a 44 Magnum. But a 10mm would be better than nothing. Then there is managing the recoil.

There are slings out there that can make carrying a long arm much, much easier and still make it easy to shoulder the weapon if needed. I don't have, or need one, but they are out there. You can get a sling that will hold the long arm close and tight to the body while leaving your hands free.

Later,
Dan

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by dannc

Smith and Wesson has this dual tube shotgun, https://www.smith-wesson.com/product/mp-12. When I first read about it, my first thought was it would be perfect for bear country. I think there is at least one other company with a dual tube shotgun but I can' remember the brand.

Anyway, there are two tubes so you could have a mix of rounds in the tubes. There is a selector button that, well, selects which tube to use. One could carry a warning round in the chamber, with more in one tube while the other tube has rounds to use if the warning shots don't drive off the bear.

Later,
Dan

I think KelTech has one.

[dannc]

Originally Posted by flightlead404

Personally I would not recommend an auto loader as a self-defense/emergency use weapon.

I would recommend a wheel gun.

All my carry guns are revolvers, and I've never had one fail to feed, fail to eject, stove pipe etc.

US law enforcement, and the officers I saw in the UK, where using auto loaders. The last officer I saw carrying a wheel gun was in Hong Kong. Though, from the photos I saw a few years ago, some of the "officers" were now carrying auto loaders. If the PoPo can carry a pistol as a self defense weapon in the environment they have to work, I think that is good enough.

I have seen a revolver have a problem firing a round. It was scary. Very scary. First round fired but the bullet got jammed in between the cylinder and barrel. All of the bullet energy turned to heat and there were five more rounds in the cylinder. It was not pretty and the weapon was useless until the cylinder could be force open.

Problems feeding in a good quality pistol with good quality ammo should not happen. If it does, it only takes a second to clear and keep on going. Not a hard skill to learn.

Originally Posted by flightlead404

Self defense weapons tend to be unused, and are often abused, stored in ways in which they collect detritus that can cause the slide and other mechanisms to jam. Additionally storing the magazine fully loaded for extended periods can result in weakening of the spring, resulting in improper feeding/jamming.

If the weapon is for self defense, it should be used, not abused, nor should it be stored where it will collect dirt. Not hard to do and if your life depends on the tool, keeping it in working order is paramount.

I have heard about officers, WAY back in the day, with revolvers, whose rounds had tarnished to a point they could not easily be ejected from the cylinder.

Originally Posted by flightlead404

Additionally, with an auto loader you have to make a choice between carrying it "locked and loaded" and ready to fire, which depending on how you carry it could be higher risk (what sort of holster etc), OR having to take extra time when you can least afford it to rack the slide.

Carrying a pistol with a round in the chamber is just not a big deal. There are gazzillions of holsters out there that will keep the trigger covered to prevent an accidental discharge. There is no difference with a pistol carried with a round in the chamber or a DAO revolver. Pull the trigger and the weapon go boom.

Originally Posted by flightlead404

A revolver is safe enough to throw off a 10 story building without it discharging but will go bang when you pull the trigger.

My carry guns are internal hammer DAO revolvers, but .38+P would be useless against a bear lol

SOME or most revolvers can be thrown off a building without them firing. I think that is also true of modern, and even not so modern, pistols. Not sure this is a big requirement for a self defense weapon. I don't intend to be running across the roof of a 10 story building. I am not Batman!

Originally Posted by flightlead404

I would consider my IHMSA load a bear (lol) minimum. .44 mag with 240gr fully jacketed hollow point, 27gr of W296 powder. This load exceeds SAAMI specs a little, can kill an adult hog at 200 yards, the recoil will knock an inexperienced adult on his/her ass, but unless you're lucky will likely just pee off a large griz or something.

The handgun needed to bring this power to bear (lol) will be a large, heavy weapon and need lots of practice to use well. I personally have very sore hands and wrists after firing the 40 rounds in a competition with my 8" Dan Wesson.

Yep, handling the recoil in a high power hand gun load is a problem, and for the big bears it might not be enough power.

Shotgun or rifle is what would be bet for the big bears, though recoil management can still be an issue as can the manual of arms for a pump shotgun. A revolver or pistol is easier to use than a pump shotgun that is for sure.

Later,
Dan

[dannc]

Originally Posted by Cadence

I think KelTech has one.

Yeah, that is the brand I could not remember! Thanks!

Later,
Dan

[delmarrey]

If you carry with a round in the chamber, there are many manufactures of semi-autos with a grip safety. Even my 50 yo Mauser has a grip safety.

I carry a large revolver in the wilderness but an auto in the cities.

[MicHughV]

My boat weapons have been a 0.357 S&W, with 6" barrel, and a Browning A-bolt 30.06 rifle.
Both weapons are stainless steel, which is what I would recommend if you're going to keep them on a boat.
As others have pointed out, get some practice in.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by flightlead404

The handgun needed to bring this power to bear (lol) will be a large, heavy weapon and need lots of practice to use well. I personally have very sore hands and wrists after firing the 40 rounds in a competition with my 8" Dan Wesson.

Which would make it pretty much useless as a pure self defence weapon on a yacht were any of the crew may need to use it. The chances that a yachtie will stand and fire at a moving polar bear? slim.

That is assuming you could buy one, thankfully they are illegal in many countries.

Finally, this thread needs to stay on track and remain cruising related please.

Pete

[Taichungman]

Dockhead has said he is not hunting, he only wants to meet requirements and have some sort of defense against a polar bear. So, Dockhead, you do not need a 30.06 or any long range weapon. Get trained on a 12ga. pump alternately loaded with buckshot (buckshot 00 first) and 2 3/4" Brenneke slugs and have your mate carry bear spray also. Further backup might be a large cal pistol on a chest rig. I carry a Kimber LS 45 with a 460 Rowlands conversion and bear spray when I go to bear country and sing a lot.

[Tetepare]

Thread drift. Some day it’s gonna get someone killed. This thread started about a satisfying the mandatory gun for Greenland.

As such, lubricant and trigger guard size is more important than other aspects that may be more relevant to, say, carrying in Toronto without getting caught.

The dual tube shotguns like the excellent Keltec KSG have not AFAIK been much tested below freezing. That would cause me concern. And both Kimber 45s and wheel guns are in the same boat.

The 870 works everywhere, every time. It works a bit rusty, it works in the tropics, it works in ice. Until someone from Alaska or Nunuviit steps up and suggests a better solution, stick with what works.

Ps I’m not a scientist of Ursines, so if I saw a polar bear I’d just go the other direction. If god wanted man to meet polar bears we would be furry. We were born naked and sans fur. This I take as a Message from God to go toward the equator.

[s/v Jedi]

On double/triple tube shotguns: a single tube is a pita… double tube = double pita etc. Imagine the weight…

On the 10mm autoloader: it is hammer fired and SA/DA so for carrying you have the choice of cocked and locked or de-cocked. It also has a drop safety just like revolvers with a transfer bar. The big difference with a wheel gun is that it shoots much faster, is more accurate because of recoil management and it has a comforting 15 rounds of 10mm. Even though you feel the extra power from the blast, recoil is handled graciously because of the weight of the gun, it’s low bore axis etc. It is easier than a .357 and much easier than a .44

On magazines: the spring in a magazine does not get weak from sitting loaded for a long time. A spring wears out from use, meaning going from compressed to extended. That said, some magazines can be unreliable when fully loaded, mostly because they tried to get one more round into a magazine that is too small. This never happens with duty guns but often with pocket guns.

On power of calibers: as you know the FBI went back to 9mm. The reason is that ammunition has improved drastically. When you buy high power loads from brands like Buffalo Bore or Underwood, and rounds with their hard cast bullets or the Lehigh Defense Extreme Penetrator solid copper bullets, then even 9mm +P loads become formidable. A park ranger is said to have taken a brown bear down with a single Buffalo Bore 9mm hard cast +P round. A 10mm version of these rounds is as effective as traditional .44 Magnum rounds, but of course you can get those from the boutique brands as well for even more performance.

Laws and regulations are an important factor though. In Alaska you can carry the handgun, in Canada nor and you even need a permit for a shotgun. I’m not sure about countries like Greenland other than that carrying a gun is a requirement in some areas.

Edit: just reading comments about being cruiser related: it is, my posts are about requirements and/or necessities for cruisers.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by Taichungman

Dockhead has said he is not hunting, he only wants to meet requirements and have some sort of defense against a polar bear. So, Dockhead, you do not need a 30.06 or any long range weapon. Get trained on a 12ga. pump alternately loaded with buckshot (buckshot 00 first) and 2 3/4" Brenneke slugs and have your mate carry bear spray also. Further backup might be a large cal pistol on a chest rig. I carry a Kimber LS 45 with a 460 Rowlands conversion and bear spray when I go to bear country and sing a lot.

Dockhead was planning this trip for Summer, 2018. He's possibly been there, done that.

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

On the 10mm autoloader: it is hammer fired and SA/DA so for carrying you have the choice of cocked and locked or de-cocked.

Glock makes a striker-fired 10mm Auto. Maybe others do by now, too. Not a recommendation for use against big bears. Black bears, maybe...

-Chris