Life rafts on small bluewater boats

[Clivevon]

Dinghy vs liferaft is an old old debate. Tinker Tramp, anyone? You bet your life. Literally. Choose well.

[Clivevon]

Gee, that Portland Podgy looks pretty.. I wonder how it got its name? Not for any 30 footer I can think of, please, unless permanently dragged behind, sorry, i mean towed.

[hpeer]

Several years ago there was a thread here where this was treated in detail. At that time Evans Starzinger was an active participant. Evans has much off shore experience and has participated in various accident/incident reviews. I can not do justice to that entire thread and do not wish to try to quote Evans as I would likely be inaccurate to some degree. What follows is my (piss poor) memory or take away from that discussion, informed by my personal situation and bias.

We sail older steel boats. No bolt on keel, rudders are quite firmly attached, lots of rigging to provide some degree of redundancy. So many of the big risk factors in sinking have been mitigated to some degree. Still possible but less likely.

Fire hazard is probably about the same regardless of construction. We use kerosene instead of propane to reduce explosion hazard. We have between 5 and 6 extinguishers on each boat. I have added some additional fusing to protect against an alternator short. Fire remains a risk.

Anecdotal evidence, observing the operation of life rafts taken in for service, indicates a substantial percentage (but under 50%) failed to deploy properly or not at all. So some folks are wandering around with a sense of false security.

Too often folks deploy a life raft prematurely. There have been incidents where an abandoned boat was later found intact but the life raft and crew were missing. (Fastnet for one). There have been multiple incidents where the life raft was deployed but damaged in the process or was swept away before it could be boarded. And there are times when the life raft is found empty, presumably it was deployed but the crew could not enter the life raft; it is apparently quite difficult. And there have been incidents where the life raft performed as desired and saved lives.

The upshot is; life rafts are very infrequently deployed, having a life raft does not guarantee it will be there to save your life if needed. There are multiple ways in which it may fail. There is some danger that having a life raft will instill a false sense of security that is not warranted. You should prepare to sail as if you did NOT have a raft. A life raft is no excuse to reduce any vigilance.

So with that caveat, sure go ahead, get a life raft. But it does almost nothing to increase the odds of survival, and if you use it as an excuse to defray vital maintenance or preparation it may be a net liability.

I understand others may disagree, that is OK. This however is my personal understanding.

One final comment or question. IF I were to get a life raft the only reasonable place for me to mount one would be on the arch, under the solar panel, upside down so that when deployed it would more or less fall directly into the water. Not sure if that is allowable it not.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Mara Mae

The Portland Pudgy has challenged the practice of carrying a single purpose auto-inflating life raft on offshore passages. For small bluewater boats the appeal to have one auxiliary craft that serves both as a dink and a life raft is compelling for offshore sailors with limited deck space and displacement. I have also listened to cruisers who have prepared their dinks with ditch bags and auto inflators so as not to have to carry a dedicated life raft. I think a pro con discussion based on experience from cruisers who were either shipwrecked or forced to abandon ship is timely. My question "How many offshore cruisers are NOT carrying an auto inflating life raft? Perhaps the case of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dougal_Robertson can provide useful context for the discussion.

I think a pro con discussion based on experience from cruisers who were either shipwrecked or forced to abandon ship is timely.

I think you will find there are few who meet that criteria.

But as a sailor who has not been ship wrecked or forced to abandon ship, even I have some thoughts:

• You'll have to live with this dingy/raft for far more occasions than use it for self rescue
• Portland Pudgy is (in my opinion) a poor boat. Even the name is stupid (but truthful)
• Portland pudgy is HEAVY
• Portland Pudgy is AWKWARD to carry anywhere
• A Portland pudgy is SMALL inside due to the rotomolding hull
• Portland pudgy is gonna be slow as a dingy.
• Portland Pudgy does not have standard life raft characteristics (such as ballast to prevent capsize)
• Portland pudgy does not have canopy
• Portland pudgy does not have boarding ladder
• If you arrange for all of these shortcomings for every ocean passage and never use them, you will tire of that process and soon begin to skip it (a life raft not ready is not a life raft)

You probably will not need a life raft ever, but if you do it will be stormy. You will need a good one. Buy a 4 man offshore raft in a bag..

For a dingy on a small sailboat, buy an inflatable which is light and which can be completley collapsed (deflated) and stowed below. Keep the gear off the deck. Get a small motor and accept that it isn't fast (but it will be faster than a portland pudgy). If you have a light weight dingy you can pull it upthe beach. My 12' zodiac weighs 77 lbs and with gas can, a motor, and some geat, it is a problem for my wife and I even with good wheels. Imagine another 50 lbs.

[Mara Mae]

Excellent points.

[boat driver]

ever seen a seaway you want to be in in your dingy?
if that small a vessel and single handed- , get a gumby survival suit and two epirbs.
Life rafts under six man are dubious, and figure your risk of sinking immediately.
But the rest is junk in a storm and will not protect you- so a calm sinking has plenty time to call for help.

[Caleb_Grey]

Originally Posted by wingssail

[LIST][*]A Portland pudgy is SMALL inside due to the rotomolding hull
wrong, The Pudgy has 16.1 square feet of floor space. The USCG requires 16 square feet for a four person liferaft. [*]Portland pudgy is gonna be slow as a dingy.
wrong[*]Portland Pudgy does not have standard life raft characteristics (such as ballast to prevent capsize)
wrong[*]Portland pudgy does not have canopy
wrong[*]Portland pudgy does not have boarding ladder
wrong

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Caleb_Grey

[LIST][*]A Portland pudgy is SMALL inside due to the rotomolding hull
wrong, The Pudgy has 16.1 square feet of floor space. The USCG requires 16 square feet for a four person liferaft. [*]Portland pudgy is gonna be slow as a dingy.
wrong[*]Portland Pudgy does not have standard life raft characteristics (such as ballast to prevent capsize)
wrong[*]Portland pudgy does not have canopy
wrong[*]Portland pudgy does not have boarding ladder
wrong

Caleb, As to your points: 16.1 sq ft of floor space may be acceptable for a four person life raft but it will be quite small if used as a dingy, which was the proposal.

If the Portland Pudgy has ballast bags like an offshore life raft, and canopy, and boarding ladder, you would still have to install them all when commencing each offshore passage because they would be obstacles for use as a dingy. Again, as per the proposal. And if it does, can you show us? I'm interested.

And wide, flat bottomed, life rafts, with ballast, do often get flipped in storms. Can you imagine how the round bottomed Pudgy would do in those kind of seas?

I personally don't think much of the Portland Pudgy (have you noticed?) but for a dingy, that is anyone's choice, but the thought of using one as a life raft horrifies me.

[wingssail]

[QUOTE=Mike OReilly;3503204... We have yet to carry a liferaft, or indeed an EPIRB...[/QUOTE]

We did not have epirb either when we set out to cross the Pacific. We said we would be responsible for ourselves and not expect someone else to rescue us. Our life raft was a piece of *****.

Then we got into a storm in which several boats were lost and four people died. People we knew and in one case we listened on the radio as they were lost. It was terrifying.

We realized how easily it could have been us.

We decided we didn't want to die, and that our cavilier attitude was foolish. Now we have epirb and a good offshore life raft, even though we don't go much offshore these days we take them.

[Fore and Aft]

Another thought with the Pudgy is the damage it can do to the people as it is being thrown around in storm conditions? We inflated a life raft in our dam at home and I zipped myself inside while the kids capsized it and knocked it around. I was glad it was rubber as a few times I bounced off the tubes and floor. For anyone who has not been inside a life raft when being capsized it is pretty scary even in a controlled environment.
Mara Mae we have a four man life raft in a cannister under our dodger. Its a bit of a nuisance in its location but on a 32 foot yacht deck space is tight. We are only coastal cruisers but with two kids I like to have all options covered.
Cheers

[AKA-None]

So if a dingy is set on the foredeck and everything goes pear shaped how do you untangle the dingy from all the rigging

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by wingssail

We did not have epirb either when we set out to cross the Pacific. We said we would be responsible for ourselves and not expect someone else to rescue us. Our life raft was a piece of *****.

Then we got into a storm in which several boats were lost and four people died. People we knew and in one case we listened on the radio as they were lost. It was terrifying.

We realized how easily it could have been us.

We decided we didn't want to die, and that our cavilier attitude was foolish. Now we have epirb and a good offshore life raft, even though we don't go much offshore these days we take them.

It's an interesting self-discussion. On the one hand, the rescue infrastructure is in place and ready to respond to such emergencies (at least in the developed world). And I certainly don't want to die.

But then there's the fact that I am choosing to put myself at risk, so why should I expect anyone else to save my bacon if things going sideways?

I come from a wilderness canoeing/kayaking background. We would disappear into the Canadian wilderness for weeks or even a month at a time with ZERO means to communicate with the outside world. If something happened, we were on our own -- that was just part of the deal.

But I'm still wrestling with the question. This is why I am interested in this thread.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Mara Mae

The Portland Pudgy has challenged the practice of carrying a single purpose auto-inflating life raft on offshore passages. For small bluewater boats the appeal to have one auxiliary craft that serves both as a dink and a life raft is compelling for offshore sailors with limited deck space and displacement. I have also listened to cruisers who have prepared their dinks with ditch bags and auto inflators so as not to have to carry a dedicated life raft. I think a pro con discussion based on experience from cruisers who were either shipwrecked or forced to abandon ship is timely. My question "How many offshore cruisers are NOT carrying an auto inflating life raft? Perhaps the case of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dougal_Robertson can provide useful context for the discussion.

I don't think the population of people that have survived sinking of their recreational cruising sailboat is large enough to draw great conclusions from.

There was a poll on this 9yr ago. The poll went 2:1 in favor of carrying a liferaft. While there was a supermajority it was not a consensus opinion.
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...-69940-25.html

What statistics there are point to a few things. If you are going to be in the life vessel a hard dinghy will last way longer. If you think you will be picked up in a relatively short period (0-14d) then a liferaft will be the most stable and offer protection from the elements. If you go past 60d your chances in an inflatable raft get progressively slimmer. The 2 longest drifts I am aware of are 76d by Callahan and 114d by the Bailys. I read both books. There are numerous accounts of people on hard rafts or dinghies lasting over 90d, there are 2 that went over a year. I have a number of books on this subject, which are currently in storage while we have an addition built on our house.

Inflatable liferafts and lifeboats have different strengths and weaknesses. See here for a discussion I did previously:

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post2809403

[Paul L]

Taking into account long, life raft survival in the multi-months timefram is just not relevant in current day situations. All of these events took place long before modern communications were available, including EPRIB, national RCCs, and the organized GMDSS system. It is more doomsday survivalist thinking, than practical cruising passage making preparation. No one is likely to survive on a life raft for more than a few days when abandoning a small boat. Matter of fact, even the odds of making it into the raft isn't great.
One thing to improve your chances in a liferaft is to pack a PLB in the raft when it is repacked.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

It's an interesting self-discussion. On the one hand, the rescue infrastructure is in place and ready to respond to such emergencies (at least in the developed world). And I certainly don't want to die.

But then there's the fact that I am choosing to put myself at risk, so why should I expect anyone else to save my bacon if things going sideways?

I come from a wilderness canoeing/kayaking background. We would disappear into the Canadian wilderness for weeks or even a month at a time with ZERO means to communicate with the outside world. If something happened, we were on our own -- that was just part of the deal.

But I'm still wrestling with the question. This is why I am interested in this thread.

We had that point of view, but we were younger and felt immortal. Plus it was, franky, a money thing too. But it's one thing to think that since we're putting ourselves at risk, why should someone else put themselves at risk to rescue us, while the danger seemed like something intangible, something that would happen to someone else, not us, but it's quite another thing when you are face to face with the bear.

Even the wilderness analogy gives you a little breathing room, after all, you can walk away, or build a shelter. I dunno, I didn't do much of that, maybe the risks are similar.

But there we were, full of self confidence and fully prepared, and yet it happened and we were powerless, totally vunerable. It just came. And it was awesome, and it killed.

We made it, not because we were better than those who perished, but because we were luckier. The wave with our name on it did not visit.

And we realized that we were not immortal. And if the next storm came, and we were not so lucky, we knew we'd pull the epirb switch in a second and be thankful if we got out alive and could start a new life in the desert somewhere far from the sea.

Now we do coastal passages. But even a 350 mile crossing is enough. Storms happen there, boats sink. We have a friend whose vessel (with five people on board) hit a whale off the coast of Baja and it broke out the rudder post and the boat sank. She got the life raft and got the crew in it as the boat sank and saved them all. Within the sight of land.

So we do get our life raft out of storage before departing for our little trips, and we've checked and replaced the epirb battery, too. And we are not going down without a fight.