Life rafts on small bluewater boats

[Kaimana]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Steven Callahan had a 6 man Avon Life Raft .....
He made the crossing in the life raft in 76 days.

I've been friends with Steven since he came to my wedding in 1987; he's an awesome guy and a great human being. I believe his book "Adrift" mentions how he'd wished he'd had a SOLID dinghy in addition to, or instead of, his Avon inflatable.

(Below) Steven with his rescuers, Caribbean island fishermen, his liferaft, and their fishing boat.



You should get a copy of the book and read it to find out about the deflation problems he had with the Avon, which of course, he had to solve at sea, with everything wet, with himself dehydrated, malnourished, and exhausted all the time. I can't think of a better reference work for "what kind of liferaft to take to sea", and "how to prepare for the worst".

And yes, it's cool that he made this amazing passage, but HE ALMOST DIED MANY TIMES! Admire him, but don't try to copy his feat, because for every Steven Callahan, there are probably ten to twenty more that simply disappeared at sea. As they say: "Professional driver, closed course, don't try this at home".

You'll also be impressed by his steadfast courage and spirit in the face of the worst thing that can happen to any sailor.

With Warm Aloha, Tim

[Kaimana]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Steven Callahan had a 6 man Avon Life Raft .....
He made the crossing in the life raft in 76 days.

I've been friends with Steven since he came to my wedding in 1987; he's an awesome guy and a great human being. I believe his book "Adrift" mentions how he'd wished he'd had a SOLID dinghy in addition to, or instead of, his Avon inflatable.

(Below) Steven with his rescuers, Caribbean island fishermen, his liferaft, and their fishing boat.



You should get a copy of the book and read it to find out about the deflation problems he had with the Avon, which of course, he had to solve at sea, with everything wet, with himself dehydrated, malnourished, and exhausted all the time. I can't think of a better reference work for "what kind of liferaft to take to sea", and "how to prepare for the worst".

And yes, it's cool that he made this amazing passage, but HE ALMOST DIED MANY TIMES! Admire him, but don't try to copy his feat, because for every Steven Callahan, there are probably ten to twenty more that simply disappeared at sea. As they say: "Professional driver, closed course, don't try this yourself".

Here's an article Steven wrote about liferafts with his comments and advice: The Life Raft: Don't Leave Your Ship Without It - EQUIPPED TO SURVIVE (tm)


You'll also be impressed by his amazing courage and spirit in the face of the worst thing that can happen to any sailor.

With Warm Aloha, Tim

[Gerrit Coetzee]

[QUOTE.
Here's a recent story of a failed use of a liferaft about acquaintances of ours.
https://www.bwsailing.com/cc/2020/07...-off-tanzania/[/QUOTE]

Thank you for sharing the link.

Well, I guess when it is time to hang up your Capt's hat, then your time is up. They passed doing their heart's desire. There is a lesson in that too.

[Buzzman]

Originally Posted by OldManMirage

As an experienced offshore passage maker and delivery captain, I update my weather information every 12 hours and evaluate my route decisions with each new forecast. The idea that this information is somehow not "actionable" is just hooey.

Just as an example: Knowing days ahead of time a front is going to pass through, exactly WHEN, and the wind direction shift that will accompany it is EXTREMELY valuable information to the knowledgable sailor. It can make a HUGE difference in the passage time by allowing me to know when it makes the best strategic sense to tack or gybe. If the value of advance knowledge of a 150 degree wind shift is lost on you, then there isn't much I can do to convince you otherwise, and I am not going to try.

The idea that the only weather information that has value is what you can SEE is just wrong.

There is a very good - recent - example of this, for those who do not follow the YT channel "Sailing Florence Around the World". Matt and Amy have just completed their passage from Indo to Seychelles, and Matt talks through hic plottign and sail selection decisions based on what info he is being provided with by his onshore router.


One such was that they needed to go a long way south in order to get into the trades. Second was that a substantial low was developing behind them and threatening to catch them before they reached the Seychelles, so they made the choice to set more sail a few days before the storm was due to hit them and thus get far enough ahead of it to minimise any impact - apart form the necessarily roughewr ride tey experienced travelling at 8-9kts instead 5-7kts they'd previously been averaging.


They aslo, for the same reason, decided to keep sailing west, rather than angling up to the north west to get to Mahi, as this would also help keep them out of the track of the low.


They also chose to stay in deeper water for as long as possible, rather than track onto the notoriously shallow Seychelles bank, and thus avoid shorter sharper seas that are common there, and avoid any weather induced sea state.

I've read in the past that one of the reasons multis are good offshore is their speed potetnial, to out run storm conditions, but I'd not heard of a mono doing it before. but clearly with the right *advice* - accurate weather information provided in advance, it is possible for a mopno to outrun bad weather in some circumstances.


So plus 1 for the "accurate weather info" being useful...

Oh, and if you haven't seen 'Sailing Florence' before, I can thoroughly recommend starting at the beginning of their now 5 year circumnav. Really nice genuine couple who aren't afraid to show their emotions.

[Buzzman]

It's clear open dinghies CAN be used to sail oceans, as Webb Chiles famously proved sailing his 18ft "Chidiock Tichborne" across the Pacific and Indian Oceans, which you can read about in his free digital book 'Open Boat Across the Pacific' accessible here:
https://www.inthepresentsea.com/the_...ite/books.html

What Webb points out, after his 300 mile drift in the totally awash Drascombe Lugger, is that he had not realised that an open centreboard case was such a liability in an open boat, and was largely what prevented him re-entering his heavily laden boat after it was rolled in a storm and filled to the gunnels.

So anyone who is thinking about using a dinghy as a 'survival craft' ought to be aware of this flaw in most dinghies.

In fact the small dinghy pointed to up-thread on craigslist I noted had a dagger board case that was likewise open to the sea/air.

I myself have had a similar situation occur while 'dinghy cruising' my 15' Jack Holt-designed Lazy E, of the boat filling to the gunnels and being unable to 'rock' the boat enough to get enough water out of it to keep the open C/B out of the water, and thus prevent the sea returing into the boat via the C/B case as fast as I was hurling it out.

Luckily, I was not sailing alone, and another sailor was able to assist, and between the two of us rock the boat fore and aft enough to slop some of the trapped water over the transom (I'd previously removed the 'cat flaps' in the stern that might otherwise have assisted with this).

But even with a significant amount of water removed, I still could not re-board, as Webb could not, until the boat was hand-bailed enough that I could do so without again sinking the boat and allowing water back in via the C/B.

And for the record, those small, yellow, scoop bailers are effing useless when trying to empty a whole dinghies worth of water. We had to use a 4 gallon / 10L bucket to make any appreciable 'dent' in the depth of water inside, and this was aided by the bucket being the rectangular 'mop bucket' style, rather than a round bucket. It fit better in the most sensible place to attempt bailing from, between the thwart and traveller.

I am now modifiying the C/B case so this cannot recur, and will be adding (even more) additional floatation, probably by building in seats/floatation chambers, whereas the boat currently has only open plank seating (and air-filled floatation bags under them).

So, while a dinghy *might* be better in some circumstances (in fact probably most) you need to be aware of their limitations and mitigate these prior to deployment.

[malbert73]

What serves as ballast for Portland pudgy? I don’t see how it would be better than rigging a canopy on a RIB

[Adelie]

Crew is ballast on all dinghies, anything with fixed ballast is technically a keelboat.
Pedantic definitions aside, almost any dinghy could serve as a lifeboat.
The 2 advantages of the Pudgy over an inflatable dinghy are long term durability and ability to set a sail.
Choosing a Pudgy vs inflatable vs hard dinghy vs folding dinghy vs inflatable life raft involves a number of trade offs.

[SV__Grace]

Originally Posted by malbert73

What serves as ballast for Portland pudgy? I don’t see how it would be better than rigging a canopy on a RIB

No ballast, of course. The big difference between a Portland Pudgy as a life boat vs a RIB is the PP is far easier to right if flipped. I wouldn't be able to right a RIB once it's flipped over.

The PP has built in flotation and is unsinkable and (it seems to me) unbreakable. A RIB is vulnerable to punctures and is not very usable without sufficient inflation.

Again, the PP makes sense for coastal cruising, not offshore.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by SV__Grace

….
Again, the PP makes sense for coastal cruising, not offshore.

Could you explain you reasoning for this?

[SV__Grace]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Could you explain you reasoning for this?

Because-

1. it is 8' and tiny, really small for one person to lay down, no less two, and no way will fit three.

2. it is not self righting

3. it doesn't have room for the supplies needed to survive at sea for weeks until rescued.

4. Even with a drogue it will be easily flipped in heavy seas, and while it can be easily righted, getting that wet and being that vulnerable to capsizing is highly uncomfortable at best and dangerous at most. (we have immersion suits and would not consider the PP a workable life boat with them)

In an emergency it is a fine life boat when rescue is a day to two away, but weeks? That's what a life raft is for and to be safe and effective you want the right tool for the job.

[Fi2010]

There’s a new Portland Pudgy storm dinghy video on youtube, which shows how easy it’s to pre-set the inflatable canopy and how to use the parachute anchor.

Our expert tested several Portland Pudgy proto-types in rough weather outside the Golden Gate Bridge. Without the canopy, the Pudgy handled 14 + ft. seas effortlessly. The pudgy tends to right itself. Even more so with the canopy inflated.

Our tester always felt really secure in the Pudgy, partly due to the high gunnels. The size of the Pudgy is why it likely handled the waves better than the chase boats. Several tests had to be stopped, because the chase boat captains were worried about damaging their boats.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by SV__Grace

…

3. it doesn't have room for the supplies needed to survive at sea for weeks until rescued.

…

In an emergency it is a fine life boat when rescue is a day to two away, but weeks? That's what a life raft is for and to be safe and effective you want the right tool for the job.

How many days do you feel a liferaft would for sure last and how many before it becomes iffy?

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by team karst

My long range sensors are detecting some EPIRB confusion.

The pulse 406MHz component of the Tx ensemble is to uplink data to satellites.
There is still a continuous 121.5MHz component that is used for "local" detect and DF techniques by civilian aircraft. This guard freq. is typically monitored by oceanic crossing flights. It has no ID or other data content.
And, typically the 2nd harmonic (243MHz) for military COM band.

No confusion

121mhz systems in 406mhz EPIRBS are typically 25mW. Systems primarily designed to aid “ final mile” location , they are not actually suited for high altitude detection by aircraft , many countries rescue boats actually don’t have 121 location tech on board but the larger RNLI lifeboats do for example.

Most 406mhz are these days or for the last 15 years typically fitted which GPS , but location is only validated when two Doppler passes are made

[Mara Mae]

Originally Posted by malbert73

What serves as ballast for Portland pudgy? I don’t see how it would be better than rigging a canopy on a RIB

https://portlandpudgy.com/lifeboat-components/

Sea Anchor for Life Rafts and Dinghy's

[Mara Mae]

Originally Posted by SV__Grace

Because-

1. it is 8' and tiny, really small for one person to lay down, no less two, and no way will fit three.

2. it is not self righting

3. it doesn't have room for the supplies needed to survive at sea for weeks until rescued.

4. Even with a drogue it will be easily flipped in heavy seas, and while it can be easily righted, getting that wet and being that vulnerable to capsizing is highly uncomfortable at best and dangerous at most. (we have immersion suits and would not consider the PP a workable life boat with them)

In an emergency it is a fine life boat when rescue is a day to two away, but weeks? That's what a life raft is for and to be safe and effective you want the right tool for the job.

I agree overall but am interested in how you were able to find the data to conclude your points 1 thru 4. I have been trying to get that data and due to the limited amount of times the PP has actually been in life saving situations and the nominal amount of independent testing the boat has received I have been unable to substantiate the concerns you raise.