Lifting Out MOB Casualty Using Life Jacket Harness

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

That sounds good in theory, but they will be dead long before you can get a halyard up to them and hooked on. I doubt if anyone could last even a minute being pulled face-first through the water at speed, and the cases support this idea. Something like this happens every year in UK waters, and the casualty always dies.


My crew are required to use AIS MOB beacons on deck, so that's what we would put our faith in in such a case.

Instantly cutting them loose is the ONLY chance of survival in such a case.

I disagree. Clip you spare tether leg to the leeward lifeline, clip your jackline end to the MOB, pull your QR, and cut the jackline. I added about 5 seconds but got him back on the boat 20 minutes sooner.


The last Volvo fatality MOB had an AIS beacon and it didn't work. This fall a Clipper sailor became disconnected and was dead by the time they found him. Just sayin'. I have read other stories where it was clear the boat could not return to the victim (wind and waves or damage).



You are absolutely right about the urgency. I think that is not well enough understood. I'm just sayin' there may be a better strategy worth developing. Your answer would work in some conditions, but not really challenging conditions and probably not 2-handed, for example. Lots of boats are couples boats. I would not bet much on my ability to find and recover an MOB singlehanded in a full storm, and I'm not a slouch. But I would accept that the chances of success were poor. Instead, I would extend the tether and try to get them to drift clear, yet still attached.

[Seaworthy Lass]

The take home messages are twofold:

- Take all possible precautions to prevent going overboard.
I find people are sometimes extraordinary blase regarding the use of tethers. Before you exit the interior you should be clipped on.

- Ensure tether length does not allow it to be possible for your head to be in the water if you do manage to be swept through or over the lifelines.
This generally requires a jackline running along the midline. Anything else seems to be suicide if you go overboard.

I think crew often exhibit either a macho attitude to tethers, or an adolescent view of their invincibility. Accidents simply happen, even for the fittest and most experienced.

[Bullshooter]

I would tentatively suggest that you look at hunting harnesses, which are made to catch a hunter falling out of a tree. Also rock-climbing harnesses, which are cheaper, easier to put on, and do not lead to suspension trauma if left hanging for some time. However, in the event of an unconscious victim, possibly the hunting harness would work. Not that a sailor would wear one normally, but it could be used to lift them after they were connected to the stopped boat.

A typical hunting harness:

https://www.sportsmansguide.com/prod...RoCsTcQAvD_BwE

Examples of rock climbing harnesses:

https://www.rei.com/c/climbing-harne...rnesses&page=1

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

. .. I think crew often exhibit . . . an adolescent view of their invincibility. Accidents simply happen, even for the fittest and most experienced.

Words to live by!

[ZULU40]

Originally Posted by thinwater

I disagree. Clip you spare tether leg to the leeward lifeline, clip your jackline end to the MOB, pull your QR, and cut the jackline. I added about 5 seconds but got him back on the boat 20 minutes sooner.


The last Volvo fatality MOB had an AIS beacon and it didn't work. This fall a Clipper sailor became disconnected and was dead by the time they found him. Just sayin'. I have read other stories where it was clear the boat could not return to the victim (wind and waves or damage).



You are absolutely right about the urgency. I think that is not well enough understood. I'm just sayin' there may be a better strategy worth developing. Your answer would work in some conditions, but not really challenging conditions and probably not 2-handed, for example. Lots of boats are couples boats. I would not bet much on my ability to find and recover an MOB singlehanded in a full storm, and I'm not a slouch. But I would accept that the chances of success were poor. Instead, I would extend the tether and try to get them to drift clear, yet still attached.

would deploying a sea anchor help stop the boat?

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

But if we're talking about the whole system --

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Aren't we/you making the rash assumption that these vests HAVE been designed as an integrated system?

yea, Hello has this (unfortunately) correct. The official view of these 'systems' is that there are two quite separate functions/products here (a pfd and a harness), and they are only sewn together for user convenience, and the crotch straps are viewed as part of the pfd and not of the harness.

The general maritime authorities have typically been very concerned about the pfd's and not so much about the harness. While the racing authorities have pushed the harnesses. For quite a while you could not get the highest official pfd certifications on a product which integrated the two together because the officials considered them 'too complicated' for the average user to correctly quickly put on.

When inflatables became common, the officials strongly supported them because they thought they would increase wear rate. But experience quickly indicated two significant problems. #1 The inflatables were designed to be fit quite tight, which would prevent the inflation chamber riding over the head. But users did not like them so tight and did not wear them that way and there were several quite ugly quite public cases of people wearing inflatables died because the chambers rode up over their heads. Crotch straps were introduced to try to reduce that problem. And those straps are considered a component of the pfd. Note: but this, like many of the sailing safety devices, has pretty miserable design, and there have been a number of public cases where the users were wearing the products entirely correctly (with the crotch straps) and the chamber still rode over their heads.

And #2 the racing community found that wearing a classic separate harness did not really work either under or over an inflatable, and they needed to be integrated. It took some time for the official authorities to come on board, but they did finally, but they still consider the two products to be separate, and the crotch straps to be part of the pfd and NOT the harness.

You could argue, correctly, that the harnesses should have always already have had good strong seat component - strong enough to both hold a short fall and to lift the person in a worst case situation with a lot of safety factor. But the racing safety people said that would lower the number of people willing to wear harnesses and make them slower to put on and that they were 'good enough' as they were (eg not many people were dying because they did not have a proper seat component) - all of which is probably true).

So, in order to hopefully increase wear rate, the safety community has pretty much agreed to not push for what pretty much everyone agrees 'should be' included in the design specs ( really robust crotch/seat design more like a climbing harness). This would not be allowed in commercial life-saving or fall-protection environments - the product would be required to be correct and the users required to use it . . . but marine is not like that.

And as a side note: one reason mfg's like spinlock don't change/improve their design even when there is an obvious known weakness (like these plastic buckles) - is they then have to get the entire product reapproved all around the world with various authorities which takes a significant amount of time and money. And in their perspective, the weakness is causing very few actual real-world problems.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

yea, Hello has this (unfortunately) correct. The official view of these 'systems' is that there are two quite separate functions/products here (a pfd and a harness), and they are only sewn together for user convenience, and the crotch straps are viewed as part of the pfd and not of the harness.

The general maritime authorities have typically been very concerned about the pfd's and not so much about the harness. While the racing authorities have pushed the harnesses. For quite a while you could not get the highest official pfd certifications on a product which integrated the two together because the officials considered them 'too complicated' for the average user to correctly quickly put on.

When inflatables became common, the officials strongly supported them because they thought they would increase wear rate. But experience quickly indicated two significant problems. #1 The inflatables were designed to be fit quite tight, which would prevent the inflation chamber riding over the head. But users did not like them so tight and did not wear them that way and there were several quite ugly quite public cases of people wearing inflatables died because the chambers rode up over their heads. Crotch straps were introduced to try to reduce that problem. And those straps are considered a component of the pfd. Note: but this, like many of the sailing safety devices, has pretty miserable design, and there have been a number of public cases where the users were wearing the products entirely correctly (with the crotch straps) and the chamber still rode over their heads.

And #2 the racing community found that wearing a classic separate harness did not really work either under or over an inflatable, and they needed to be integrated. It took some time for the official authorities to come on board, but they did finally, but they still consider the two products to be separate, and the crotch straps to be part of the pfd and NOT the harness.

You could argue, correctly, that the harnesses should have always already have had good strong seat component - strong enough to both hold a short fall and to lift the person in a worst case situation with a lot of safety factor. But the racing safety people said that would lower the number of people willing to wear harnesses and make them slower to put on and that they were 'good enough' as they were (eg not many people were dying because they did not have a proper seat component) - all of which is probably true).

So, in order to hopefully increase wear rate, the safety community has pretty much agreed to not push for what pretty much everyone agrees 'should be' included in the design specs ( really robust crotch/seat design more like a climbing harness). This would not be allowed in commercial life-saving or fall-protection environments - the product would be required to be correct and the users required to use it . . . but marine is not like that.

And as a side note: one reason mfg's like spinlock don't change/improve their design even when there is an obvious known weakness (like these plastic buckles) - is they then have to get the entire product reapproved all around the world with various authorities which takes a significant amount of time and money. And in their perspective, the weakness is causing very few actual real-world problems.

That sounds like a pretty cogent and definitive explanation.


Blya.



I was thinking about buying a new life jacket -- a Spinlock 5D. If nothing else because it's a business local to me, just down the street in Cowes. But those bloody things, despite their great cost, have even flimsier crotch straps and buckles than the small Seago 165N jacket we were using in our exercise, so scratch that idea. Reading this I am now thinking to just stick with my old Seago 275N jackets which have quite beefy straps with WIDE PADS, and maybe just upgrade the buckles.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

That sounds like a pretty cogent and definitive explanation.


Blya.



I was thinking about buying a new life jacket -- a Spinlock 5D. If nothing else because it's a business local to me, just down the street in Cowes. But those bloody things, despite their great cost, have even flimsier crotch straps and buckles than the small Seago 165N jacket we were using in our exercise, so scratch that idea. Reading this I am now thinking to just stick with my old Seago 275N jackets which have quite beefy straps with WIDE PADS, and maybe just upgrade the buckles.

Interesting, just got an email ad about the Spinlock 5D and was about to post it to this thread...scratch that. Odd, given thats one of their pitched benefits.

[leftbrainstuff]

Anything less than the commercial offshore vests with a lifting hook are useless

Also that cutesy picture of a prone person being lifted in a sling is also useless.

If you've ever done any offshore oil and gas or military SAR training you'll understand the impracticality of the recreational and racing kit.

Even the standards for life rafts and life vests are more focussed on cheap rather than effective.

[hzcruiser]

Originally Posted by syPhilos

This is my nightmare scenario: the skipper falling overboard and me having to try and find him and then get him back on the boat somehow ...
[...]
we always thought we could at least use the buckles on our vests ...

A MOB is always a disaster or even a nightmare.

And yes, you can and should use the buckles on the vest, even though it's not comfortable and can have side effects. It's meant as a life saving feature after all, not for everyday use. Same goes for your PFD, you're not inflating it for fun or comfort nor on a daily basis, it's a last resort item and it's not pretty.
As for the weight, few people could ever pull a person their own weight out of the water without some form of help. I'd recommend to either attend a survival at sea training (which also helps reducing those nightmares) or at least practise a routine of lifting a heavy weight out of the water using a halyard and the onboard winches.

[thinwater]

Starzinger hit it dead on. Convoluted, with little hope of a good answer. More importantly, he outlined the reasons why there will likely be no effort to look for one.


BTW, the EN standard has this to say. There is no standard for chest harnesses in any code that I am aware of, other than sailing, because it is accepted that a chest harness is manifestly unsafe.



From EN 12277: Mountaineering Equipment - Harnesses - Safety requirements and test methods

3.1.4, chest harness (type D). Harness which fits around the upper part of the body around the chest and under the armpits.

NOTE 1. This type of harness alone cannot support a person in the hanging position without permanent injury in less than one minute.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

That sounds good in theory, but they will be dead long before you can get a halyard up to them and hooked on. I doubt if anyone could last even a minute being pulled face-first through the water at speed, and the cases support this idea. Something like this happens every year in UK waters, and the casualty always dies.





My crew are required to use AIS MOB beacons on deck, so that's what we would put our faith in in such a case.



Instantly cutting them loose is the ONLY chance of survival in such a case.

Terrible assumption, our spinnaker halyard, spinnaker pole lift and passerelle halyards are all ready and convenient at all times. It would only take a moment to connect them to a tether which is already attached to the MOB. Just clip to the tether clip then cut the jackline and lift.

[hellosailor]

"This type of harness alone cannot support a person in the hanging position without permanent injury in less than one minute."
Not that I'm totally disbelieving, but I certainly would like to see the objective data that says just one minute. After all the years that throwing a life ring, or tossing a bowline, was taught and used--without reports of grave injury and death.
I suspect the truth lies somewhere in between.

[GoldenRose]

What is the approved method of getting a large crew member back on. If I approached him when I could see him at the bow someone would have to haul Him30 or 30 ft by hand with no leverage or power.An impossibility if the mob is 350 pounds and the crew member is 120. Backing up toni to get him onthe wimstep is difficult as fromthehellmI cant see the stern and risk inning over him and cutting him Kip with the props and that wold only work if he was conciuous to climb the swim step I have a 92 ft power boat. Are there some sort of power device gantrylike you would use for a spare anchor

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by Paul L

If you have a Galerider like drogue you can use it as a sling

Too bad the pic didn’t come through the quote. Giant fish net.

Also, somewhere I previously noted that after reading the Lifesling database I sewed 1/2” nylon crotch straps into our PFD’s. They have quick clips/snap shackles on them. Not ideal but suits the mission.

I’ve got outboard stays, I lashed shackles to the stays, about shoulder high, so I can run jacklines through them. Practical Sailor did an article on that recently.

I think we need to get last blaming the PFD manufacturers, no matter how appropriate, and come up with ways to fix things ourselves until the industry (and pocketbooks) adapt.