Lithium Ion

[Cheechako]

From a Fire Captain who is a friend of mine: (are your LI batteries under your companionway?)

"To all my friends - this is the new, emerging threat in the fire service - lithium ion batteries. This technology is responsible for the spectacular fire in New York the other day that resulted in a rope rescue. If you have devices that use lithium batteries, do not charge them in exit ways from your home - they burn fast and block your exit. I do not think this is the solution to 'global warming' - and I do predict multi-fatality fires once these things are used on mass transit."

[Franziska]

Yes, and this is exactly why on boats folks use LiFePo4 and not LiIon.

Completely different story and chemistry.
It's also the reason why Tesla changes from LiIon to LiFePo4.
LiFePo4 has a much much better fire safety.

Still, be careful with those LiIon batteries you do have on board in tools, drones, tablets, computers and so on. These are LiIon.
We do store & charge those separately from the appliances and in a fireproof location.

[Glenn.Brooks]

+1 on that! Lithium ion is a dangerous and terrible choice for a boat - particularly cruising in remote areas or making an ocean passage. The problem is the battery chemistry is highly flammable. Fires result when a battery cell casing gets damaged and the positive and negative materials short out. if the protective shell gets damaged - you get runaway combustion that can not hardly be extinguished. The burning mass will eat right thru the bottom of your boat - and ignite everything in the vicinity. Nothing you can do.

The alternative, lithium phosphate, is inert for all practical purposes - so much, much lower fire risk. The battery industry is also experimenting with lithium silicon and a couple of other chemistries that could further improve the safety factor. Also these developments have higher energy storage capacity, so you get longer battery life. At the moment, the safer batteries are more expensive, often 2x the price of old school lead acid/AGM, although two or three times the battery life…

[CarlF]

Scare posts like this are really not helpful. The batteries your friend was talking about should NEVER be used in a boat battery bank - and I've never seen them in a boat.

The batteries you do use on a boat - LiFePO4 (also called LFP) just went through testing by experts from ABYC at the request of the Coast Guard. They tried everything they could think of to makes a LiFePO4 catch fire. Stuff that would easily make a regular lead acid or AGM catch fire. But they couldn't get the LiFePO4 to burn - just melt a little.

Here was the letter they wrote about their efforts that was published in the ABYC newsletter.

****************

ABYC President's Message

Common Sense

ABYC is built on a tradition of common sense and real world experiences. Early in my technical days, I was told ABYC designed the Standards so the backyard boatbuilder could achieve desired results. Testing and methodology were crafted in plain language for a “common sense” approach to a safe product.

We did not set aside best engineering practices for simplicity; the technical committee is packed with engineers and data-crunchers overseeing the process of drafting and updating the Standards. This balance has helped ABYC create useable, reliable, and relevant documents that help to achieve an unmatched level of safety in our industry. This is why, when the US Coast Guard asked us to look into potential problems with Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO 4) batteries on boats, we jumped at the chance.

The ABYC Technical Department, with input from the industry, recreated a number of scenarios based on accident narratives that claimed LiFePO 4 batteries to be the cause of a fire. In our on-site test lab, our team subjected batteries to conditions ranging from “normal” operations to extreme use and abuse. We purchased units built for the marine environment with robust battery management systems. We also included recycled batteries available from mass retailers, with an “optional” battery management system and no clear instructions from the battery or cell manufacturer. We tried to replicate sketchy behavior which is the fear of insurance companies and regulators alike.

Do you know what we found? We couldn’t start the fire (Sorry Billy Joel). We witnessed swollen cells, completely dead batteries, and multiple safety cutoffs (when not bypassed). We had a very hot summer here in MD. Even the high heat didn’t come close to a spontaneous combustion scenario.

We arranged calls with industry experts, and we asked them what we might be missing in our testing. What can we throw at these batteries to replicate the accidents we were hearing about? No one had anything to add, short of putting these batteries directly in a fire (which we did). We were able to add LiFePO 4 batteries to a local International Association of Arson Investigators (IAAI) boat burn--even there, no one detected any indication that the batteries themselves contributed to the fire. Many of us were fully expecting a report where we were able to replicate an unsafe situation and make some recommendations.

Our full report will be sent to the USCG in due course, and then ABYC will report on our findings. This being a mere President's letter please take it as what it is: My observations while watching our Technical Department do some great work. But, the research and testing may show us that we must take this discussion to the test labs for another round. Our common sense approach to testing has proven again to be the foundation for getting to the bottom of a scenario many of us (including myself) thought would reveal itself in short order. Stand by for formal reporting as we continue our work.

- John

[Glenn.Brooks]

Apparently you didn’t read the thread very closely. Lithium ion (litIon) are an early battery style and can still be had in automotive sizes. Indeed these should be avoided in marine battery banks, as your letter indicates.

And yes, as everyone on the thread has suggested, lithium phosphate (lithPo4) are exponentially safer.

These are relatively recent additions to the market place, so boaters who wish to convert to lithium battery power should be careful about which battery type they purchase to put on their boat.

[GordMay]

FWIW: John Goodenough, died at 100, this past summer [June 26, 2023].
He shared the 2019 Nobel Prize in chemistry, for his work developing the lithium-ion battery.

More ➥ https://spectrum.ieee.org/john-goodenough-tribute

And ➥ https://www.nobelprize.org/uploads/2...try-2019-2.pdf

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by CarlF

Scare posts like this are really not helpful. The batteries your friend was talking about should NEVER be used in a boat battery bank - and I've never seen them in a boat.

The batteries you do use on a boat - LiFePO4 (also called LFP) just went through testing by experts from ABYC at the request of the Coast Guard. They tried everything they could think of to makes a LiFePO4 catch fire. Stuff that would easily make a regular lead acid or AGM catch fire. But they couldn't get the LiFePO4 to burn - just melt a little.

Here was the letter they wrote about their efforts that was published in the ABYC newsletter.

****************

ABYC President's Message

Common Sense

ABYC is built on a tradition of common sense and real world experiences. Early in my technical days, I was told ABYC designed the Standards so the backyard boatbuilder could achieve desired results. Testing and methodology were crafted in plain language for a “common sense” approach to a safe product.

We did not set aside best engineering practices for simplicity; the technical committee is packed with engineers and data-crunchers overseeing the process of drafting and updating the Standards. This balance has helped ABYC create useable, reliable, and relevant documents that help to achieve an unmatched level of safety in our industry. This is why, when the US Coast Guard asked us to look into potential problems with Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO 4) batteries on boats, we jumped at the chance.

The ABYC Technical Department, with input from the industry, recreated a number of scenarios based on accident narratives that claimed LiFePO 4 batteries to be the cause of a fire. In our on-site test lab, our team subjected batteries to conditions ranging from “normal” operations to extreme use and abuse. We purchased units built for the marine environment with robust battery management systems. We also included recycled batteries available from mass retailers, with an “optional” battery management system and no clear instructions from the battery or cell manufacturer. We tried to replicate sketchy behavior which is the fear of insurance companies and regulators alike.

Do you know what we found? We couldn’t start the fire (Sorry Billy Joel). We witnessed swollen cells, completely dead batteries, and multiple safety cutoffs (when not bypassed). We had a very hot summer here in MD. Even the high heat didn’t come close to a spontaneous combustion scenario.

We arranged calls with industry experts, and we asked them what we might be missing in our testing. What can we throw at these batteries to replicate the accidents we were hearing about? No one had anything to add, short of putting these batteries directly in a fire (which we did). We were able to add LiFePO 4 batteries to a local International Association of Arson Investigators (IAAI) boat burn--even there, no one detected any indication that the batteries themselves contributed to the fire. Many of us were fully expecting a report where we were able to replicate an unsafe situation and make some recommendations.

Our full report will be sent to the USCG in due course, and then ABYC will report on our findings. This being a mere President's letter please take it as what it is: My observations while watching our Technical Department do some great work. But, the research and testing may show us that we must take this discussion to the test labs for another round. Our common sense approach to testing has proven again to be the foundation for getting to the bottom of a scenario many of us (including myself) thought would reveal itself in short order. Stand by for formal reporting as we continue our work.

- John

I suggest read the 1st post carefully again…nobody talks here about house or service banks.
It’s about the Li-ion that are in your phone,tablet, battery power tools, USB power banks, razor….that you charge and especially in mono‘s often close to compainway and if that catches fire it blocks your way out, it’s small but intensiv fire…had ones a 2AH pack for Makita burning, Thanks god not on boat. That was ugly and if this burns in companionway you are f….ed.
Turns out it was a non original= fake battery pack for makita I got here delivered.

[donradcliffe]

//www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/MIR2323.pdf

$3 million damage from a Lithium Ion walkie talkie battery

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

I suggest read the 1st post carefully again…nobody talks here about house or service banks.
It’s about the Li-ion that are in your phone,tablet, battery power tools, USB power banks, razor….that you charge and especially in mono‘s often close to compainway and if that catches fire it blocks your way out, it’s small but intensiv fire…had ones a 2AH pack for Makita burning, Thanks god not on boat. That was ugly and if this burns in companionway you are f….ed.
Turns out it was a non original= fake battery pack for makita I got here delivered.

^^ THIS ^^

Details matter!

Thanks CaptainRivet.