Mass Robbery in St. Lucia

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by rognvald

David, then based upon your above remarks, without reciprocity there are no rights? If that were the case, then Anarchy would be the rule of law and Civilization non-existent. Example:
"Hey, Man. You don't give me no respect! Now, gimme your money or your life." How would you like to live in that world?

Yes, without reciprocity there are no rights (no one is actually born with any ) - giving each other rights works well enough within a society (and also between societies that are part of the same basic system). and the rule of law is a fundamental part of that. Nothing perfect of course . But having rights just don't work so well when one group gives themselves more rights than another group (inside a society or outside)....especially when the others outnumber 'em. or have more mojo - and a willingness to use it.

In regard to your example, my answer is no - that's one of the reasons why I am back here in Old Jersey . But plusses and minuses to every approach.......even if your specific example is a little bit on the liberal side .........the key is to adapt to local norms. having no conscience also kinda helps. as does marrying "badly" .

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Bash

Yikes. It must be low tide here on Cruisers' Forum.

Here's what the US Department of State currently says about St. Lucia:

CRIME: Crime, including armed robbery, does occur and is rising in St. Lucia. Violent crime is often connected to narcotics trafficking. Petty crime also occurs, with tourists being targeted often. Efforts by the St. Lucian authorities to improve public safety on the island are ongoing. Visitors should inquire about their hotel’s security arrangements before making reservations. Valuables left unattended on beaches and in rental cars are vulnerable to theft. Visitors should use caution, especially at night and in less frequented areas.

Let's hope it doesn't get worse. I've only spent a couple of weeks sailing/diving in St. Lucia, and would love to return someday.

I check these warnings generally before heading into a new country. They are always a bit on the extremist side. Guess what country this warning is about:

The possession of firearms and the frequency of violent crime are generally more prevalent than in Canada. Within large metropolitan areas, violent crime more commonly occurs in economically disadvantaged neighbourhoods, particularly from dusk to dawn. Verify official neighbourhood crime statistics before planning an outing. Robbery and assault can also occur in wealthy residential or commercial districts. Exercise caution, particularly at night. Violent crimes, particularly assault, are often connected to alcohol and drug consumption. Remain alert and discreet while in entertainment areas.
Canadians have been the victims of crime such as break-ins, assaults and pickpocketing in the Miami area, sometimes during daylight hours. Theft occurs in the North Miami Beach area, at South Beach and at airports, particularly from trunks of parked cars. Be alert, as criminals use a variety of techniques to steal personal belongings.
Passport theft is on the rise. Ensure that your travel documents are secure at all times.

[letsgetsailing3]

Compared to Canada, everywhere is dangerous.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

Compared to Canada, everywhere is dangerous.

I thought Canada was full of Biker gangs and Triads .

[rognvald]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

All through history the rich accumulate wealth disproportionately, never stopping to examine the consequences , until the greater mass take ( some) of it back from them. Being gong on for 100s of years.

Not condoning it. But I've been all over the carribean, and in most countries its a third world environment attached to a first world tourist business. Believe you me the locals are angry. Angry people do strange things. Do not underestimate the effect some " hard working white " guy walking around with enough IT toys to feed a whole family for a year has on the locals.

Its not a sustainable system , it will blow

Dave

Dave,
They are angry because they cannot see the connection between tourism and economic gain. This comes from an innocent ignorance of the economic system and a lack of education. If they saw the connection, they would become involved in the competition and the ones with the most talent and strongest work ethic would benefit no differently than the evil white guy who has the audacity to flaunts his "luxuriant" lifestyle and IT toys. This unfortunately has been the model for the Caribbean, South America and Africa where the people can only see exploitation rather than a better way of life for themselves economically. There has been no colonial government in these areas that ever benefitted once the colonial regime left or was ousted. And, if you asked the average citizen on the street, they would tell you honestly they lived better under Colonialism than after their independence. The most recent example is South Africa--a once prosperous country that was the jewel of the South that now boasts the highest murder capitol of the world, Johannesburg, a declining business community and population and the greatest holocaust of modern times with the continuing slaughter of Whites in the cities and the farms by gangs of brutal thugs and the confiscation of their businesses by the government to deed to Black South Africans who have no idea how to run the business and commonly abandon the enterprise within a year leaving a once prosperous farmstead to return to the African savannah. In the case of South Africa, it did blow but the results were not positive and the government is being controlled by the thug and thief Jakob Zuma and his Marxist/Socialist cronies in the government. Education, hard work, sacrifice and an enterprising spirit are the keys to success. If a country does not want to embrace this tried and true formula to economic strength and freedom it will forever be discontent and washed in the misery of the Third World. The "hard working white guy" is not the problem, his values are the solution.

[Mark1977]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

I thought Canada was full of Biker gangs and Triads .

Yep....

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by rognvald

Dave,
They are angry because they cannot see the connection between tourism and economic gain. This comes from an innocent ignorance of the economic system and a lack of education. If they saw the connection, they would become involved in the competition and the ones with the most talent and strongest work ethic would benefit no differently than the evil white guy who has the audacity to flaunts his "luxuriant" lifestyle and IT toys. This unfortunately has been the model for the Caribbean, South America and Africa where the people can only see exploitation rather than a better way of life for themselves economically. There has been no colonial government in these areas that ever benefitted once the colonial regime left or was ousted. And, if you asked the average citizen on the street, they would tell you honestly they lived better under Colonialism than after their independence. The most recent example is South Africa--a once prosperous country that was the jewel of the South that now boasts the highest murder capitol of the world, Johannesburg, a declining business community and population and the greatest holocaust of modern times with the continuing slaughter of Whites in the cities and the farms by gangs of brutal thugs and the confiscation of their businesses by the government to deed to Black South Africans who have no idea how to run the business and commonly abandon the enterprise within a year leaving a once prosperous farmstead to return to the African savannah. In the case of South Africa, it did blow but the results were not positive and the government is being controlled by the thug and thief Jakob Zuma and his Marxist/Socialist cronies in the government. Education, hard work, sacrifice and an enterprising spirit are the keys to success. If a country does not want to embrace this tried and true formula to economic strength and freedom it will forever be discontent and washed in the misery of the Third World. The "hard working white guy" is not the problem, his values are the solution.

While this is the standard dictum, it simply doesn't work. Africa to this day is exploited by the west ( and increasingly china ) it has laboured under severe trade embargoes , restrictions on capital , and access to western markets.

Not withstanding many African countries are slowly improving the standard of living of there people. The west left a terrible legacy in Africa, that will take generations to undo.

Your characterisation of SA is fundementally similar to white Anglo Saxon missionaries and capitalists, I love the " businesses by the government to deed to Black South Africans" comments. You think the whites just got the land and resources in the Post

Read your history , our hands are soaked in blood and we will pay for it . I feel no need to,apologise for our actions, but I don't dress them up in moral righteousness. We ( the west) grabbed power money and resources by force of arms , by economic coercion and by ruthless application of our law. It worked. But when we are finally driven out , you cannot expect what's left to suddenly correct itself

I have several white and black friends in SA , some would " pine" for the " good old days" None would actually ever want them back.

We have no moral superiority , we took all of it by force.

Education , hard work has nothing to do with it. The Availability of cheap natural resources , low cost labour ( ie poverty that needs a job ) and the availability of capital is what did it. Its at work today in China.


lets not pretend we're white evangelical missionaries Ok , lets just accept we are better bullies. Lets be grown up enough to accept its done essentially by coercion

Dave

[captain58sailin]

Wow, I've been exploited all my life. There are no easy answers to the dilemma, except for about a 90% die off of the world's population, and then no villages larger than 2 or 300 people. When the population exceeds 300 then start killing people until you are back to 300. As long as there are 3 people on the planet, and one has something the other 2 want, there is an opportunity for exploitation. I am with DOJ on this one. We like to dress up and play nice, but under the very thin veneer, it is caveman time.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by captain58sailin

Wow, I've been exploited all my life. There are no easy answers to the dilemma, except for about a 90% die off of the world's population, and then no villages larger than 2 or 300 people. When the population exceeds 300 then start killing people until you are back to 300. As long as there are 3 people on the planet, and one has something the other 2 want, there is an opportunity for exploitation. I am with DOJ on this one. We like to dress up and play nice, but under the very thin veneer, it is caveman time.

That's exactly my point. , we just had a better gun for a long time

Dave

[perchance]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

I thought Canada was full of Biker gangs and Triads .

True but they are very polite Biker gangs and Triads

[Captain Grandpa]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

This is what happens when poverty meets wealth.

I have been poor. Not poor like I couldn't afford a new car, but poor where I couldn't feed my kids or pay rent on even the smallest of homes. Not once did I resort to robbery.

[rognvald]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

While this is the standard dictum, it simply doesn't work. Africa to this day is exploited by the west ( and increasingly china ) it has laboured under severe trade embargoes , restrictions on capital , and access to western markets.

Not withstanding many African countries are slowly improving the standard of living of there people. The west left a terrible legacy in Africa, that will take generations to undo.

Your characterisation of SA is fundementally similar to white Anglo Saxon missionaries and capitalists, I love the " businesses by the government to deed to Black South Africans" comments. You think the whites just got the land and resources in the Post

Read your history , our hands are soaked in blood and we will pay for it . I feel no need to,apologise for our actions, but I don't dress them up in moral righteousness. We ( the west) grabbed power money and resources by force of arms , by economic coercion and by ruthless application of our law. It worked. But when we are finally driven out , you cannot expect what's left to suddenly correct itself

I have several white and black friends in SA , some would " pine" for the " good old days" None would actually ever want them back.

We have no moral superiority , we took all of it by force.

Education , hard work has nothing to do with it. The Availability of cheap natural resources , low cost labour ( ie poverty that needs a job ) and the availability of capital is what did it. Its at work today in China.


lets not pretend we're white evangelical missionaries Ok , lets just accept we are better bullies. Lets be grown up enough to accept its done essentially by coercion

Dave

The history of the world is recorded in technologically superior societies displacing the less fortunate indigenes. The US, Canada, Mexico, Central America, South America, New Zealand, Australia, South Africa, and the list goes on. Even in mother Europe, many indigenes were displaced initially by the Roman Empire and later by the Germanic tribes of Central and South Germany. The Angles and the Saxons were two Germanic tribes that displaced the early English and were to later become the most common moniker to describe England: Anglo-Saxon. In all respect, your politics are completely opposed to mine and your ideas embody the socialist view of history with a strong dose of "White Guilt." Whether you like it or not, Dave, we live in a Darwinian world where the strong survive and the weak perish. It's not the way we like to see the world, but it is the way it is. Man is driven by selfishness and greed--Darwinian survival traits that permit the survival of the organism. It is hardwired into our DNA and is the most essential trait of all living organisms. Schopenhauer called it "the will" in his book "The World as Will and Representation" as the one aspect of a human that takes precedence over all others. I would honestly love to live in a world of peace and harmony but we are fighting against 6 million years of human evolution. What kind of odds would you guess in that game? Good luck and good sailing. P.S. These intelligent discussions with divergent opinions like yours and others give this forum a huge advantage over others that lack depth and personal insight.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Captain Grandpa

I have been poor. Not poor like I couldn't afford a new car, but poor where I couldn't feed my kids or pay rent on even the smallest of homes. Not once did I resort to robbery.

Maybe... but there's poor with hope... and poor with no hope...
Not saying its 'right'... Just saying...

[Mark1977]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Maybe... but there's poor with hope... and poor with no hope...
Just saying...

Very true....

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

This is what happens when poverty meets wealth.

Bang! That's what will happen when dirty scum robber meets .357 magnum here in the USA.