Merged Thread: New Zealand Yacht with One Deceased and Another Missing

[Scotty Kiwi]

Originally Posted by NoTies

Two years to come out with the report hardly justifies a "well done". The really worrying thing here is it looks like the bureaucrats that infest MNZ now intend use this as a big stick to bludgeon yachties and punish them for their love of freedom. Sitting in a warm safe classroom learning how to be "safe".

I do agree with you to a large extent - and could go further - a lot further. (but so could you, I think).

I was there (ie in survey, charter owner/operator) as a change of MNZ CEO, from a sea going individual, to a bureaucrat, seemed to infect the whole culture of the organisation. And then the high court scrap, for years, as a very worthwhile and pragmatic survey company fought against MNZ for its life - I think fundamentally against bureaucratic pride and ego, and eventually won. Wrecked quite a bit of the surveyors life. And then that CEO left, going on to be incompetent in other matters.

And yes, 2 years to write a report? You are right. Talk about padding. And then the regulations that may may not follow.

BUT ... reading the report (actually skimming at this stage) for me it made really good points. I learned.

And if, just for argument, you take each extreme - NZ's overbearing over detailed bureauwank, or somewhere with non whatsoever (eq a wild west - Somalia) I know which side I'd rather err on .... The alive, safe, but frustrated and overtaxed side ...

But yes, a happy medium and experience based common sense would be far nicer still. No real reason why we can't have it back. Just wait till I'm in charge <haha joking>.

[El Pinguino]

While I am sure lots of drills and paperwork and more experience with the yacht would have been a wonderful thing they weren't the cause of the gybe and the loss of life.

That would appear to have been down to a leak in the hydraulic steering system.

Sure... the owners had very little experience with the yacht since purchase.... the crew had less.... probably no difference too many yachts heading offshore.

The steering failure and the gybe could just have easily happened running in a fresh breeze from Rangitoto back to Gulf Harbour....

While this steering failure was the primary cause a poorly rigged preventer and an under spec'ed padeye didn't help.. Would any of that been sorted by more paperwork or training? Doubt it.... better for MNZ to widely promulgate these findings in the hope that more people check their hydraulics....

Another contributing factor in what happened after the gybe would be the position of the helm... right down the back of the boat with apparently no secondary steering system in the deckhouse. A pretty dumb design feature of you ask me..... remind you of another yacht Ben?

Helm and relative position of the mainsheet can be seen below.... imagine that boom coming past you - at speed - with the traveller hanging off the end of it....

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Another contributing factor in what happened after the gybe would be the position of the helm... right down the back of the boat with apparently no secondary steering system in the deckhouse. A pretty dumb design feature of you ask me..... remind you of another yacht Ben?

Yep.. That was Blizzards big design flaw, and the "no mans land" between the main cockpit and the steering cockpit always felt insecure. We always used the jacklines and clipped in, but it was an

The whole idea is flawed on so many levels. It ends up with no shelter aft, and poor visibility around the forward cockpits dodger.

[oilystain]

The report really made me feel like I escaped catastrophe. We also have a hydraulic ram on our steering quadrant and I inspected it before our short trip up the coast. The wind was down so we were motoring with the autopilot on. All of a sudden, the boat makes a hard turn to starboard. Luckily I was close enough to disengage the autopilot within seconds but the boat still turned more than 45 degrees. If we were under sail going downwind, and our preventer wasn't up to task, this could have been us (me and my wife). Upon inspection, the electronic compass for the autopilot' which was mounted next to the controller in a cabinet near the quadrant was, to my surprise, was held to the back wall of the cabinet with double sided tape and when that tape failed, the compass fell to the floor of the cabinet resulting in some spectacular changes in heading. But for the grace of God go I.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

While I am sure lots of drills and paperwork and more experience with the yacht would have been a wonderful thing they weren't the cause of the gybe and the loss of life.

That would appear to have been down to a leak in the hydraulic steering system.

Sure... the owners had very little experience with the yacht since purchase.... the crew had less.... probably no difference too many yachts heading offshore.

The steering failure and the gybe could just have easily happened running in a fresh breeze from Rangitoto back to Gulf Harbour....

While this steering failure was the primary cause a poorly rigged preventer and an under spec'ed padeye didn't help.. Would any of that been sorted by more paperwork or training? Doubt it.... better for MNZ to widely promulgate these findings in the hope that more people check their hydraulics....
t....

I do agree with you Ping, but mob procedures and drills would have resulted in one less life. The guy that went into the water was passed nearby at least twice. No one through him anything to help him float. Nothing. Knowing your mob drills would have resulted in at the very least someone throwing him something.

And so would have knowing their systems. During the interviews I’m pretty sure it points out that no one knew of the hydrolic reservoir. So checking for something when you don’t know it exists is pretty hard.

I’ve learnt a lot from this investigation.

[Palarran]

What strikes me about this incident is the failure to properly use a preventer. In fact, so many times I've read about booms snapping due to an accidential gybe when rigged with a preventer that I don't use one. More headsail, less mainsail? I don't really know as my mono experience is not great but it seems to happen a lot. Fortunately catamarans don't have the same exposure to accidental gybes.

Crazy story though - and thead. Wow did it get weird in the first two pages.

[Snowpetrel]

https://www.sail-world.com/news/208089

[NoTies]

Originally Posted by Scotty Kiwi

And if, just for argument, you take each extreme - NZ's overbearing over detailed bureauwank, or somewhere with non whatsoever (eq a wild west - Somalia) I know which side I'd rather err on .... The alive, safe, but frustrated and overtaxed side ...

But yes, a happy medium and experience based common sense would be far nicer still. No real reason why we can't have it back. Just wait till I'm in charge <haha joking>.

I know what I prefer and that's why I showed NZ my sternlight over 10 years ago. 2 1/2 more years for Vanuatu citizenship now, yippee.

[DumnMad]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

I do agree with you Ping, but mob procedures and drills would have resulted in one less life. The guy that went into the water was passed nearby at least twice. No one through him anything to help him float. Nothing. Knowing your mob drills would have resulted in at the very least someone throwing him something.

The report suggests that obedience to mob procedures would not have saved him and may have cost another life since access to the equipment was fraught with danger. The only drill that counts here is "ensure you can't fall off the boat."

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

https://www.sail-world.com/news/208089

Thanks for posting this, Ben. The questions for discussion are really good.

[JPA Cate]

I'm wondering where they stowed their throwing rings? or Lifesling? Were such items even accessible with that huge boom with the main sheet and 4.4 lb. traveller slashing uncontrolled?

It was so dangerous from the flailing of that massive boom,[ see how much of that worker's upper legs are spread out, sitting on the aft quarter of it?] that it would have been a situation where, once the first man was dead, the other crew would have been readying to come up--the bang! would have woken them, and then the succeeding bangs would have let them know something REALLY bad had happened, just how bad, they were about to discover!

In retrospect, I'm sure the survivors wished they had been able to toss the man in the water a ring, any flotation at all, but they never were able to gain control of the boom something likely to be perceived as essential to the survival of all.

Ann

[Snowpetrel]

There is no guarantee the guy in the water wasn't badly injured as well. Nobody saw him go overboard. And with no lifejacket he would have struggled to stay afloat for long with wet weather gear and boots.

[Tillsbury]

I find it utterly bewildering how the situation ended up like it did. At the start of reading the report I assumed that there was a lack of knowledge, but the list at the back claims that every one of the five crew were very experienced sailors. How on earth did anyone not have harnesses and lifejackets on when running in 40+ knots of wind?

And what possessed them to spend NZ$4m moving the mainsheet traveller from a perfectly sensible position to the most ridiculously dangerous possible place?

I used to sail a 28' Dufour where the traveller ran across in front of the companionway entrance. It was bad enough even in light winds watching it whack across as if to take someone's arm off. No way would you ever get me out on the open sea in a boat with the traveller between the cockpit and the helm station.

I agree with the report's conclusion that documentation regarding the boat and procedures should be printed up. I'm in the middle of doing that at the moment -- taking some useful stuff from the recent threads on here regarding procedures at night, in heavy weather, MOB, steps to take after a knockdown, and so on. Watch procedures need to be covered, as well as the usual stuff about setting off, sail handling, anchoring, safety gear, fire safety, and so on.

[Snowpetrel]

^^I think having a crew mate dead and still in the cockpit with you, and the wrecking ball of a boom and traveler swinging about crazily between you and the sail controls, while another crew has been brutally knocked overboard would make it very hard to make rational decisions quickly and efficiently.

It's understandable that the shock would cause a fair bit of 'panic' and difficulty doing even simple tasks, as evidenced by the problems making a mayday call.

Only those with active battlefeild experiance or with considerable medical emergency duties such as paramedics and Police and ER staff would be likely to keep a completely clear head under those circumstances.

[JPA Cate]

^^^^
Once I was a passenger in a car that spun out of control on a 2 lane highway in California when the differential locked up, we did a 360 spin, fortunately onto the gravel shoulder, and not into the oncoming traffic. I got out of the car to wave down oncoming traffic, so there would not be more accidents. My whole body was shaking from the adrenalin rush.

To me it's very understandable that the remaining crew were having a hard time coping. It is unlikely that any of them had professional emergency response training.

Furthermore, it was the real and present danger of even getting to the aft cockpit to try and steer the boat by hand.... Does anyone know if the aft cockpit could be accessed from below decks?

And a question, given the mass of that boom, thanks El Pinguino for the photo, instead of running off with the turn, what if they had come up to maybe 45-50 deg off the wind? Would the wind have been enough to stabilize the boom lying against the spreaders? with the hope of securing it there?

Ann