MOB safe options

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Because of such a rig's efficacy it also permits help to go in the water, e.g if the MOB is already unconscious or even dead, since once the victim is back aboard, the crane permits the helper to be hoisted back aboard before he, too, becomes a victim.

Ah yes, the "live bait rescue." Often discussed, rarely attempted.

[Franziska]

Originally Posted by slipaway

Very true but happens all the time. Some of it is marketing and people wanting to get a "cool" tech gadget, some is just ignorance. And it is not limited to new recreational sailors. A few years ago a very experienced racer went overboard at night, had the AIS beacon but his boat (a very $$ and experienced racing boat) had no receive capability. What saved him was his whistle (and a crew that practiced what to do).



There is always going to be the discussion of PLB vs AIS vs.... Here is a good article that discusses it (from a marine safety expert):



https://www.soundingsonline.com/voic...-ais-satellite

I simply do not get why there are no combined AIS & PLB systems one the market which one can wear on the life jacket.
It surely would not be much bulkier than one with single functionality.

Seems the best of both worlds.

Add a recall button which can be activated once the POB is back on board.

[goboatingnow]

Teach her how to furl the jib/genny, centre the mainsheet and start the engine then do a 180 and head back..
Worry about getting back on board when the above has been mastered

my wife is slight and 68 , getting in the headsail is close to nearly physically impossible for her except in very benign conditions

weve discussed it a lot , but my the time shes completed it the boat could be anywhere

[goboatingnow]

Sailing on a beam reach on a calm day? Well that's the easiest. Throw in a Williamson turn (pictured) and stay a few boat lengths downwind. Then (knowing your boat) turn up into the wind rather like picking up a mooring ball under sail. I'm not a huge fan of dropping all sail for a MOB because it takes time and effort. Once you turn into the wind you can turn on the engine and let the sails flog, they won't do anything but make noise unless you get a cross gust, but this goes back to knowing the situation you're in. Would I drop sail in other circumstances? Sure.

Picking the person out deserves its own conversation that I think is important and we should all have. As someone said earlier a MOB operation isn't a single action, it's surprisingly complex with lots of steps involved, each one with technical complications, and it can be argued getting someone

indeed ist complex and in the typical couple case if the man goes over , its a death sentence in my view as panic, physical strength and technical ability all work against the MOB beig recovered

for short handed crew you HAVE to have position reporting MOB technology or the remaining person will probably never find you, especially in medum to heavy weather

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

Making your statement just a touch more general. Many people tout the limitations of AIS, but implementing receive only is an extremely high return on investment. A newer VHF, for a couple of hundred dollars, and a two conductor wire between the VHF and the chartplotter. You will see every freighter out there. You will see every sailboat that has ever done an offshore race (most races require transmit anility these days). You will see a large number of miscellaneous pleasure craft. And you will see every MOB device. Arguments about transmit ability are not as strong, but receive ability is a must-have on any significant boat.

firstly transmit AIS is the best safety device identified for yachts in the last 20 years

to see shipping moving to give you clear passage is awesome, to have ships contact you by DSC or boat name is awesome . Its fixes the main issue with shipping is they dont see yachts !!

as for AIS mob, the fact is the best rescue platform for an MOB is the boat they just fell of off. GMDSS is NOT designed to rescue MOBs ( it tries of course but its not optimized, GMDSS assumes you are not in the water , ie in the boat or in a liferaft )

Hence PLBs are largely far too slow a response system, the only good feature is that a nearby MRCC radio station can relay the MAYDAY to hopefully near by boats , but in essence the yacht itself can do that

I ised to be a chairmen of an RNLI station, so I know the response times issue etc etc and how GMDSS is supposed to work and how it actually works

If you are out of direct SAR rescue asset range a PLB is almost useless other then to find your body . its the ultimate delusion wearing one

[Franziska]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

firstly transmit AIS is the best safety device identified for yachts in the last 20 years



to see shipping moving to give you clear passage is awesome, to have ships contact you by DSC or boat name is awesome . Its fixes the main issue with shipping is they dont see yachts !!



as for AIS mob, the fact is the best rescue platform for an MOB is the boat they just fell of off. GMDSS is NOT designed to rescue MOBs ( it tries of course but its not optimized, GMDSS assumes you are not in the water , ie in the boat or in a liferaft )



Hence PLBs are largely far too slow a response system, the only good feature is that a nearby MRCC radio station can relay the MAYDAY to hopefully near by boats , but in essence the yacht itself can do that



I ised to be a chairmen of an RNLI station, so I know the response times issue etc etc and how GMDSS is supposed to work and how it actually works



If you are out of direct SAR rescue asset range a PLB is almost useless other then to find your body . its the ultimate delusion wearing one

I consider a PLB to be the last chance to be picked up.
Best would be a personal AIS combined with a PLB and possibly an emergency VHF.
Unfortunately that does exist, yet, as a one piece wearable unit.

[goboatingnow]

Requiem sez: "... I don't see why the weaker partner can't manage it if they've given thought to an appropriate system in advance."

A solid argument in favour of having a proper running topping lift in a cruising boat :-). These days, with every fall taken to the cockpit and winches available, a running topping lift makes a crane boom out of the main boom. The boom permits the MOB to remain clear of the hull while being hoisted so he doesn't get injured by slamming into it, and it permits him to be hoisted high enuff to clear the life lines.

Because of such a rig's efficacy it also permits help to go in the water, e.g if the MOB is already unconscious or even dead, since once the victim is back aboard, the crane permits the helper to be hoisted back aboard before he, too, becomes a victim.

using a boom in a seaway is a recipe to be killed , securing it into position is difficult and the forces are and can be large and you risk the remaining crew ( often the weak one )

secondly if the casualty is disabled there s no way to secure the topping lift to the body, The D rings on harness fitted PFDs are NOT designed correctly for lifting and even with crotch straps ( which are uncommon) will simply result in the jacket being pulled off the victim

I would NEVER advocate crew enter the water to rescue , " never have to rescue the rescuer", this is a mantra where the remaining crew is one and weak

None of these so called recovery techniques work with weak single crew and a disabled causality , The outcome is he or she will die in the water if you are disabled in such circumstances

the most interesting MOB training I did was in a F7 off Roches Point in Cork which has a headland race . 50 footer with 6 crew, it showed how most of the techniques are absolutely nonsensical in heavy airs and weak crew . Just stopping the boat is nearly impossible and coming near it risks landing on the victim

just dont fall in , thats the mantra

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Franziska

I consider a PLB to be the last chance to be picked up.
Best would be a personal AIS combined with a PLB and possibly an emergency VHF.
Unfortunately that does exist, yet, as a one piece wearable unit.

relying on GMDSS to recover a single MOB is not a good idea , it may work in countries with extensive SAR assets ( but these are mainly cold water countries and you'll be dead before they arrive )

not to mention that most worn PLBs do not activate automatically , so the assumption is the casualty is not disabled . If casualty is not disabled , The craft they fell off is by far the best chance of their rescue

PLBs were designed for land based rescue , where the primary goal is to locate the victim and the assumption is the victim can survive the rescue dealy

clearly if you are 400 miles out in the atlantic a PLB is going to do nothing acce#pt t identify your body in 24-36 or 48 hours time

PLBs at sea are a largely useless resource for MOB in my view . The best systems relay your location to the yacht you fell off from

[goboatingnow]

Ocean Signal RescueMe MOB1 AIS/DSC Beacon to ne presents the state of teh ART as you get both a AIS alert and a DSC distress alert and hence you dont need AIS fitted

get this and forget about PLBs unless you are Hiking up mountains

[Franziska]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Ocean Signal RescueMe MOB1 AIS/DSC Beacon to ne presents the state of teh ART as you get both a AIS alert and a DSC distress alert and hence you dont need AIS fitted

get this and forget about PLBs unless you are Hiking up mountains

I beg to differ.

If there is noone around in VHF range (AIS & DSC both rely on it as you are likely aware of), your done if you only have the suggested device.
Especially as a single hander.
VHF is essentially line of sight and when the antenna is literally at sea level has an especially short range.

The PLB gives you a chance that someone outside the VHF range might get alerted with an indication of where you are and can then home in on you within VHF range.

I am not talking about pure inshore cruising and I am aware that even with the combination of PLB and AIS beacon it will be very hard to spot a single person bobbing in the ocean.

A lot of boating is done in areas where the water is warm enough to give you a couple of hours to be picked out of the drink.

[goboatingnow]

The PLB gives you a chance that someone outside the VHF range might get alerted with an indication of where you are and can then home in on you within VHF range.

I think you dont undertand how it works

PLBs alert a land based MRCC , that centre must then locate assets within the area of the causality , a PLB does not alert anyone locally or at sea at all.

under GMDSS a series of dedicated assets are available , inshore that is likely to be a land based SAR depot, either deploying a Helicopter or water based craft

offshore , the options are limited , there are the AMVER vessels , but the rescue centre has to reach such vessels by VHF , Inmarsat A/B or C or HF ( or MF ) , increasing HF is difficult and HF stations are now rare . If there are no nearby vessels with long range capability the MRCC radio MAY NOT be able to reach the yacht at all and alert them a PLB has triggered

in such cases the vessel could take considerable time to reach the causality


during ALL THIS TIME, the yacht the person fell off of , may be completely unaware of that fact and equally even if it is has NO IDEA where the casualty is

AIS MOB with DSC alerting , immediately alerts the yacht , AIS and DSC alerts travel much further then voice and the water level distance to a mast masthead is measured in miles . furthermore any vessel in the vicinity is automatically also altered without any intervention from MRCC land stations

MOB recovery is incredibly time sensitive especially where there is suspect injury , PLBs are useless is this regard, and were never designed as a MOB device

forget PLBs , there are a compromise that pre-dated proper AIS/DSC Mob devices , get the right thing for the job and thats not a PLB

[goboatingnow]

I am aware that even with the combination of PLB and AIS beacon it will be very hard to spot a single person bobbing in the ocean.

A PLB does not feed the yacht its position , an AIS /DSC MOB device can make regular updates . with a properly configured system this appears on your chart plotter and with typical GNSS accuracy offers the very best chance to bring you directly back to the victim

[Franziska]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

A PLB does not feed the yacht its position , an AIS /DSC MOB device can make regular updates . with a properly configured system this appears on your chart plotter and with typical GNSS accuracy offers the very best chance to bring you directly back to the victim

I never said that the PLB would communicate with a, or the yacht or any other units close by.
That's why there is an AIS beacon for close range in the proposed unit.
AIS/DSC does not have any long range communication capabilities if it's a VHF based signal.

I propose a wearable combination unit with integrated AIS beacon, GPS and PLB. Long range communication goes to an MRCC via PLB, short range via AIS to anyone in the vicinity or directed to the vicinity by an MRCC.

The PLB which the MOB would have to trigger manually (if they are unconscious, tough luck) does transmit an alarm and GPS position.

If a PLB goes off offshore the likelihood that the signal will be relayed to an MRCC is very much there. Once they have the position they can source any commercial shipping or air assets which may be able to assist and inform them accordingly on the GPS location of said alarm.

Once those assets are close to the location they can home in on the person over board via their AIS signal. Very much like the old RDF 121.5 units,but with the advantage that all commercial ships and many pleasure boats in the vicinity can directly search for the signal of the AIS.

Most, if not all commercial shipping is equipped today in a way to receive long distance communication from an MRCC.

As I said I am not talking about a situation in which the person over board is dead after minutes due to hypothermia.

[slipaway]

I think the take-away from all the back and forth here is that there are a variety of tools- some technology based (e.g. AIS beacons, PLBs, proximity alerts) and some not so much (e.g. whistles, lights) that all have a place in MOB awareness and recovery. It is important to gain a good understanding of how each of these work (OK, a whistle not so hard though there are in fact different types of whistles). AIS = only local alerting via VHF; PLB = satellite based with GPS positioning and homing beacon, but longer response times. Proximity alarms= limited range with no alerting or positioning; etc. There are pros and cons to all of them. Each sailor needs to decide for themselves what will work best for them and their crew taking into account their vessel, sailing area and style, finances, etc. and then configure their vessel (and lifejackets) accordingly. And then practice the "what-ifs" to maximize a successful recovery.

A "bottom-line" in all of this is that the lifejacket is the key to survival if someone goes overboard. Certainly in calm, warm, clear conditions someone could fall overboard without one and get back onboard, but in anything other than that without the lifejacket (and all the other tools are probably attached to the lifejacket) the chances of a successful rescue are low. If one is in a situation where there is a higher chance of going overboard, wear a lifejacket. That would be the first (and perhaps best) tool available.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

firstly transmit AIS is the best safety device identified for yachts in the last 20 years



to see shipping moving to give you clear passage is awesome, to have ships contact you by DSC or boat name is awesome . Its fixes the main issue with shipping is they dont see yachts !!

I don't disagree with you. I am currently cruising in an area where I see transmit as having exceptional value, and am somewhat disappointed by how few pleasure boats have it. I am especially disappointed by the absence of it on lobster boats, fishing boats, whale watch boats, and other high use vessels that don't have it.

And don't even get me started on law enforcement and the military. We were stopped by the Canadian Mounties a week or two ago, and they don't broadcast. When the Coast Guard sets up patrols in the East River around the UN building, you should think they would WANT to be seen, rather than pretending they want to be incognito.

My feeling becomes less strong for vessels in high volume areas. The first problem is that class B in areas like Annapolis Maryland are so prolific that they lose value. If there are 20 AIS targets within a mile and a half of you, all moving in random and varying directions and speeds, the clutter overwhelms the value. I actually turn mine off in those areas, both to clear up my chart plotter and to not add further clutter to other boats.

And again, in those areas, the cost benefit ratio for transmit may not be as strong. A small boat that is only used daytime in good weather in protected water (and often the annual use is low) may not see the $1,000 or $2,000 investment as reasonable.

But any boat with a VHF radio and a chartplotter really should have receive. The cost is so low, and the benefit is so high.