MOB ‘sling’ or similar

[slipaway]

Originally Posted by Iron E

Here are some rules.
Don't Fall Overboard.
Never give up a handhold.
If solo, (or even a sailing couple), make use of jacklines, harness, and tethers when leaving the cockpit.
Finally, Don't fall overboard.

And let me add, WEAR A LIFEJACKET.

If you have a conscious person in the water who can assist it is easier of course (though with some boat designs with high freeboard and no swim platform can still be a challenge). But, as mentioned, getting a person who is unable to assist back on the boat is extremely difficult. And it's difficult even for a crew with many hands in good condition. Here is a (sad) case where a racing boat with 8 crew lost the captain overboard and even though he managed to get into the lifesling, he drowned. It took them several hours to get him back aboard in daylight, warm water. One conclusion of the US Sailing inquiry was if you fall overboard, your chance of death increases dramatically. Staying attached to the boat is critical to minimizing this risk. https://bermudarace.com/wp-content/u...a-Incident.pdf and https://www.ussailing.org/wp-content...2022-FINAL.pdf

Several methods have been discussed, whatever one chooses you need to practice, practice, practice.

And as it has been said, stay on the boat!

[davil]

MOB, an issue that always keeps my attention.

Wish there is a way to take that term out of use.

First, MOB is a marketing tool to sell hope, brings a great deal of profits, people buy all sort of “stuff” under the premises of SAFETY.

Actually once a member of a boat, skipper, owner, guests, crew, once fall off the boat are now a new category, “Part of the food chain”

As a single handler, if I fall off, while under way I am gone!!!! as simple as that.

If I have a crew, I emphasize they must be hooked to the boat at all times we are in open waters, (exception day sailing in protected waters during daylight in warm waters)

Once outside, everybody in the cockpit MUST be clipped, no exceptions.
I provide offshore rated life vest with integrated safety harness and crotch strap.

A set of personal beacons,AIS for helping me to locate the idiot didn't follow my instructions, also an EPIRB, a flashing light and
most important a water proof portable vhf radio to direct me to their position (remember nighttime, fog, waves)

I reinforce it by putting their mind at ease , promise will try my best to manage to turn around, shorten sail,start engine,find them on time before they go into hypothermia, cardiac shock or the sharks do not get to them first,

It is true, some people are either slow learners or tend to refuse to follow my safety rules, they are disembarked at the first port of call!!.
Or never invited again!

I log my instructions and their refusal date and time to provide documentation for a USCG investigation should the case be.

I feel am responsible to return with the same number of bodies I left!

---------------------------------

However, the chance to fall either from the boat or the slip while boarding are real ,have a folding ladder tied up to the lifelines with a pin, connected to a pull line on a small float, tested, when pull the string releases the pin and the ladder falls.

cheers



Originally Posted by Iron E View Post
Here are some rules.
Don't Fall Overboard.
Never give up a handhold.
If solo, (or even a sailing couple), make use of jacklines, harness, and tethers when leaving the cockpit.
Finally, Don't fall overboard.

[Iron E]

Originally Posted by RobertL

My 2 cents...
My take on a MOB situation: the less that is needed to do, the better, since keeping an eye on the MOB, maneurering, etc. is enough of a challenge. No runing for halyard lines, winching etc. (who is controlling the boat whilst your winching?)

That's not how it works. The videos are out there should you care to watch
the procedure.

With the lifesling you quickly deliver the lifesling. Bring the MOB to the boat and secure them... THEN, you Rig tackle and pull them aboard.
IDK of a simplier way.

The lines on of the C&L float, so no prop tangle. Adjusting throttle speed is how you determine how fast a person is pulled in.
I feel the most critical part is getting the person back on board. Needing to rig a 3:1 line using the boom (probably swinging about in wind/waves) is not something one usually has "at hand" when it is needed.

Yes, the lines float. But the sea anchor, by its nature, is underwater, pulling the line underwater. Maybe it's not a big deal, IDK.

I watched a video of the procedure and feel you really don't fully understand how either method works.
The video I link below shows several areas I find very problematic, especially when doublehanded.

1. Whenever you have an MOB, you should do your best to avoid losing eye contact at all costs. I have been involved in over 70 rescues and can't stress enough how you can lose someone by looking away for 1 second.
In the demonstration video of the Catch and release, when the crewmember falls overboard, the skipper walks over to a locker, pulls out the catch and release case, opens it, walks to the forward deck, and attaches the tackle, THEN he walks over to the box and throws over the harness. Holy crap... MOB is ded!

2. When MOB is in the harness, the skipper throws the sea anchor. I didn't think of this before watching the video, but the sea anchor and harness could easily be overlapped or tangled, causing a jam at the block/tackle.

Anyway, I enjoy talking about MOB methods and fully agree that simpler is better. We call it the KISS method.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yEyQNRzebQ

[Foswick]

I've given this subject a lot of thought and research. I spent a few years trying to find a solution or invent my own and start a company. I can say with some confidence that a great solution does not exist that meets the criteria I established. The thing is, recovering a conscious victim, even if they are too weak to pull themselves up, is a relatively simple task when compared to the assumption that the victim is unconscious.

I approached the problem with the assumption that the victim is unconscious since the nature of an emergency is that you don't get to control the conditions you're faced with. For our personal circumstances, there is a very real danger of a crew member becoming unconscious, causing them to fall overboard.

So, our criteria, in looking at this challenge:

- must secure AND retrieve an unconscious victim from a face-up or face-down position
- a single operator should be able to secure the victim within about 90 seconds (this number isn't well-tested)
- a single operator should be able to lift the victim partially out of the water (delaying hypothermia) while rigging for a complete retrieval
- a single operator should be able to get the victim safely on deck within about 7 minutes (also a somewhat arbitrary/untested number)
- the system should not have a single point of failure
- the system has to be small, simple, and unobtrusive enough that it will actually get carried and used
- the system should not require the rescuer to enter the water or put themselves at increased risk of falling in the water

I will say that this solution does not exist. I would love someone to prove me wrong.

The LifeSling is the best solution on the market for most people. I've looked at them all, and I can say this without much reservation. However, it is really only half of the solution. It requires a conscious victim, even to just secure the victim, much less retrieve them.

Using solutions currently on the market, you have to break it down into four tasks: secure conscious victim, secure unconscious victim, retrieve conscious victim, and retrieve unconscious victim. At best, it requires two systems to achieve all four tasks.

And, I don't think that any solution for retrieving an unconscious victim is suitable for most private boats. Most are some variation on the scoop-and-lift idea, and no matter what you see on YouTube, they are very hard to use unless conditions are very calm.

We did prototype a couple of solutions that I think show some promise, but they are not something that the average person could DIY. I finally came to what I think is the best solution, and this is what I tell everyone:

a) Get a LifeSling2 and either their official hoisting tackle or your own rig
b) Understand the limitations of that system
c) Ensure crew wears a PFD with a harness. Tie a loop of high-visibility floating line onto that harness. (This can be used to hook an unconscious victim.) If you cannot use this harness to lift a victim, ensure crew wears a harness that can be used.
d) Attach lanyards to the handle end of boat hooks with a carabiner, and keep these boat hooks handy. (You clip the lanyard onto a lifeline so you can let go of it once you've hooked your victim - to free up your hands.)

... and the most important, by far ...

e) Practice, practice, practice. Try out every scenario you can think of. Make sure all crew practices all the skills. If you fail to do this, I promise you that almost everyone, regardless of skill and experience, will either resort to brut force to try to lift the person out of the water or will end up jumping in the water themselves.

Please believe me on this latter point. Even if you think that you're smarter than that, when the situation gets very real, pretty much everyone resorts to the simplest thing they can think to do. Anything that requires some reasoning, improvising, or calculating will pretty much go out the window.

So, if nothing in this (too) long post applies, let it suffice to say that honestly the only thing that matters much is practice with whatever equipment you do or don't have. Just know what you're going to do for a given emergency. Even if that plan isn't great, it's infinitely better than not having one.

But, Iron E makes two really important points. First, it is WAY better to not fall overboard in the first place because retrieving people is hard. Second, if there is a MOB, no equipment or training will matter if you can't locate the victim and it is REALLY easy to lose sight.

[deblen]

I am posting a pic of a Fundy lobster boat with a "recovery ring" that is commonly used in Atlantic Canada. It is mounted just to port of exhaust stack in pic.
These are made of "seine floats" strung in a circular pattern.
Len




Some UK ideas https://icbrindle.com/man-overboard-body-recovery.html

[Cpt Mark]

Originally Posted by Don C L

I think the only option for a singlehander, who presumably is still hanging on the tether of the harness, is a long rigid ladder that is easily deployed from the water. Is there another way?

My idea is to run a line fore/aft above the water (advantage of a catamaran). If I go over (properly located jacklines are a fantasy IMHO, I'll be on the short tether. My long tether will then be connected to said line and short tether most likely cut off as the loads will be more than I can manage. I'll be connected to the boat and stop aft where the boarding ladders are.

This guy is on a monohull and has a pretty interesting method of self rescue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I4WFaikXqs

[Cpt Mark]

Re Lifeslings. I've had them on boats for decades. never deployed. Yay! Understood the concept. BFD.

Last summer my Yacht club did a 3 day lifesling training class. 1 evening was lecture and hoisting each other up a beam using different tackle systems. 2-1, 3-1, 4-1.

Next was getting our boats and lifeslings properly prepared and doing water rescues under sail. Solo. Much more challenging but after learning how to actually use one, rig one etc. it was pretty easy. One of the things I hadn't considered was hooking the lifesling to the halyard. The person is in the water and I have high freeboard. Person in the water my be useless due to hypothermia, alcohol, exhaustion etc. All of the recues I have done in real life the individual was of no help. So on my life sling I have 2 simple knots that form loops. 1 loop goes on a cleat when the person is close enough. This is done by hauling them in by hand and now they are connected to the boat. Not going anywhere. The next loop is connected to the halyard where you winch them up high enough to clear the lifelines and drop them slowly to the deck.

I watched classmates struggle with using a winch and not enough multiple part tackles. Some had winchmates that worked pretty good. I have an electric winch which made the process lightning fast and easy.

[Foswick]

The main challenge with an unresponsive victim isn't really hoisting them out of the water. With a little resourcefulness and hopefully with some forethought and practice, this can be done on most boats even without special equipment. (On our boat, we have a plan to remove the boom vang and repurpose that for hoisting, which works quite well.)

The challenge is securing the victim. Lifesling is a really great solution, but it still doesn't solve that challenge. If you can get the victim in the sling, you're set. But, particularly with some freeboard and wave action, this can be easier said than done. It is also reasonable to assume that, if there is a MOB, the remaining crew might have limited control of the vessel.

So, what to do?

The only reasonable solution I have seen is, as I mentioned before, to have crew tie a short floating loop onto a hoistable chest harness (either integrated into the PFD or separate). This gives crew something to get ahold of that can then be used to hoist the victim.

But ... the truth of the matter is, almost no one will do this, even though it is simple and unobtrusive. Unless going offshore, very few people will use jacklines to prevent a MOB and ... let's be honest ... many don't even wear a PFD most of the time.

So, the truth of the matter is that almost everyone is underprepared for a MOB situation almost all the time unless the MOB is conscious. We have a tendency toward optimism bias. A certain amount of this is required to go out onto the water at all.

[deblen]

from GoodOldBoat Magazine:
https://goodoldboat.com/overboard/

[Iron E]

Originally Posted by deblen

from GoodOldBoat Magazine:
https://goodoldboat.com/overboard/

This seems obvious, but it has to be said: The most important lesson learned is, stay aboard the boat

In our post-analysis of the event, I determined that had I been clipped with the short tether, or clipped onto one of the two pad-eyes fitted in the cockpit, I might not have gone in the water, at least not fully.

100% this.^^^

[Foswick]

I will add ...

I'm not the one who will tell anyone they're doing it wrong. Everyone makes up their mind for their own reasons, and everyone compromises.

But, I will say that if your rescue plan is a ladder and you don't have a Plan B, you are not prepared for a MOB except in pretty ideal circumstances (which is not where MOBs tend to happen).

I'm definitely not saying not to carry a ladder. You should definitely have one. Even if your freeboard is super low, hypothermia can make it impossible to lift yourself out of the water, and it can be alarming at how quickly this can happen.

When I was first learning to sail, I capsized in a gust, in a little Flying J with a daggerboard. Not a big deal at all, normally, except that I hadn't secured the daggerboard. So, I had to make a decision to stay with the boat or swim to try to catch the daggerboard as I drifted away in a 20 kt breeze. I stayed with the boat, but without the daggerboard, it was pretty much impossible to right the boat in those winds.

Within just a few minutes, I was too weak to even try. And, the water wasn't really that cold - mid/low 50s, I suppose. I was alarmed at how quickly my muscles started shutting down. It was a real eye opener.

A few years later, I lost a friend in similar waters who was wearing a wetsuit, but after a capsizing a surf ski, became too weak to get himself fully out of the water.

So, unless you sail in warm waters, this has to be a consideration. I encourage everyone to try it at least once, under controlled circumstances.

When I taught sailing in dinghies, on the first day I had everyone go out, capsize, and recover - before even trying to sail. I did this so people would get over the fear of capsizing, once they saw how easy recovery was. We would do this several times to get comfortable. People would notice that after 5-6 capsizes, cold and fatigue would set it, making recovery increasingly difficult.

Both lessons were important - a) that capsize is nothing to fear and b) cold water and fatigue sneak up on you way faster than you would think until you experience it for yourself.

Another club nearly lost 2 sailors a while back. They capsized out on Lake Washington and, knowing they could recover at any time, decided to just stay in the water and swim for a bit. When the decided to recover the boat, they were too weak, but didn't realize it until it was too late. They had to be rescued and both went to the hospital.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Iron E

That's not how it works. The videos are out there should you care to watch
the procedure.

With the lifesling you quickly deliver the lifesling. Bring the MOB to the boat and secure them... THEN, you Rig tackle and pull them aboard.
IDK of a simplier way.



Yes, the lines float. But the sea anchor, by its nature, is underwater, pulling the line underwater. Maybe it's not a big deal, IDK.

I watched a video of the procedure and feel you really don't fully understand how either method works.
The video I link below shows several areas I find very problematic, especially when doublehanded.

1. Whenever you have an MOB, you should do your best to avoid losing eye contact at all costs. I have been involved in over 70 rescues and can't stress enough how you can lose someone by looking away for 1 second.
In the demonstration video of the Catch and release, when the crewmember falls overboard, the skipper walks over to a locker, pulls out the catch and release case, opens it, walks to the forward deck, and attaches the tackle, THEN he walks over to the box and throws over the harness. Holy crap... MOB is ded!

2. When MOB is in the harness, the skipper throws the sea anchor. I didn't think of this before watching the video, but the sea anchor and harness could easily be overlapped or tangled, causing a jam at the block/tackle.

Anyway, I enjoy talking about MOB methods and fully agree that simpler is better. We call it the KISS method.

Another thing. You have to tow the person through the water at 3-4 knots. They need to be in the sling just right and they will be getting a face full of water. I've been towed in a Lifesling at that speed. They better be uninjured.


But I applaud people that try.


If they are injured they better have a harness and someone better be prepared to go in the water (tethered). It's going to be very tough if you are alone on the boat. Better hope you have low freeboard.


I was filming a drogue deployment for an article a few days ago. I twisted my knee pretty good when the boat lurched and my hands were full. Another reminder of just how many ways there are to fall off. I guess I would have clung tight to the drogue bridle.

[deblen]

Originally Posted by Foswick

I will add ...

I'm not the one who will tell anyone they're doing it wrong. Everyone makes up their mind for their own reasons, and everyone compromises.

But, I will say that if your rescue plan is a ladder and you don't have a Plan B, you are not prepared for a MOB except in pretty ideal circumstances (which is not where MOBs tend to happen).

I'm definitely not saying not to carry a ladder. You should definitely have one. Even if your freeboard is super low, hypothermia can make it impossible to lift yourself out of the water, and it can be alarming at how quickly this can happen.

When I was first learning to sail, I capsized in a gust, in a little Flying J with a daggerboard. Not a big deal at all, normally, except that I hadn't secured the daggerboard. So, I had to make a decision to stay with the boat or swim to try to catch the daggerboard as I drifted away in a 20 kt breeze. I stayed with the boat, but without the daggerboard, it was pretty much impossible to right the boat in those winds.

Within just a few minutes, I was too weak to even try. And, the water wasn't really that cold - mid/low 50s, I suppose. I was alarmed at how quickly my muscles started shutting down. It was a real eye opener.

A few years later, I lost a friend in similar waters who was wearing a wetsuit, but after a capsizing a surf ski, became too weak to get himself fully out of the water.

So, unless you sail in warm waters, this has to be a consideration. I encourage everyone to try it at least once, under controlled circumstances.

When I taught sailing in dinghies, on the first day I had everyone go out, capsize, and recover - before even trying to sail. I did this so people would get over the fear of capsizing, once they saw how easy recovery was. We would do this several times to get comfortable. People would notice that after 5-6 capsizes, cold and fatigue would set it, making recovery increasingly difficult.

Both lessons were important - a) that capsize is nothing to fear and b) cold water and fatigue sneak up on you way faster than you would think until you experience it for yourself.

Another club nearly lost 2 sailors a while back. They capsized out on Lake Washington and, knowing they could recover at any time, decided to just stay in the water and swim for a bit. When the decided to recover the boat, they were too weak, but didn't realize it until it was too late. They had to be rescued and both went to the hospital.

Excellent advice!
Warm water sailors do not understand how fast hypothermia sneaks up on you-or they would not be jumping overboard,or suggesting it, to clear a prop or other "?under/in/water" chores.
Another medical fact is the shock auto shutdown of the mind caused by "surprise" immersion,that you have absolutely no control of-you just sink.
Len
https://rnli.org/safety/know-the-risks/cold-water-shock
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_shock_response

[Woody]

Originally Posted by deblen

from GoodOldBoat Magazine:
https://goodoldboat.com/overboard/

I enjoy reading these because they often illustrate that even people who have planned for these situations can (and often) find that in the emergent situation, something unanticipated has happened and their plan does not work. It's interesting that the authors in this story were ambivalent about the failure of the auto-inflating vest as they reckoned it could have possibly hindered the rescue.



Simply having a ladder or other equipment is no guarantee of their functioning as intended in a situation. I failed to find the article, but I recall reading about a rescue in which the well trained racing crew performed their MOB plan flawlessly, but unfortunately he drowned as a result of being dragged through the water in the life sling as they were hauling him back to the boat. As user Foswick pointed out, the rescue is really a chain of at least 4 operations, each of which should be considered carefully.


It seems that these discussions, lots of forethought, and practice above all can do much to help us prepare, along with learning from others hard-earned experience is imperative.


Here's another one about how quickly it can go from zero to chaos. I highly recommend this read:



https://48north.com/racing/race-repo...rboard-rescue/

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by boatsisboats

Hello.
I’m looking for practical solutions to retrieve a MOB by myself.
If my wife or I were to go overboard and we hit our head or become overly fatigued, we need a way to haul the other aboard. We have planned and practiced getting the boat back etc, but haven’t found a good solution for hauling back aboard assuming the MOB is not much help.
I’ve seen a couple of products that you can deploy to electric winch someone aboard, but they can be complicated or require calm seas.

What good methods have you seen. A product or your own sling method? Halyard or ???

Thanks for the ideas

Trevor

You are smart to be thinking about this. With the other great challenge of MOB recovery solved with DSC/AIS MOB beacons carried in your life jackets (you have these, right?), that leaves getting the casualty back on board as the main challenge.


It is a LOT harder than it would seem, and a lot of MOBs die while the crew struggle with this.


When we did our trip to the Arctic a few years ago, we spent a lot of time thinking about this, and PRACTICING. The solution we settled on was a block and tackle on the boom end rigged to the casualty's harness eye. If you hold the boom out with a preventer, this can be done in seas too lively to allow the casualty to get too close to the side of the boat.


It could be done with only one person on board.


But now what if the casualty is unconscious, or not strong enough to clip himself/herself in? Our solution was RESCUE SWIMMER. Someone would go into the water, tethered to the boat, and deal with getting the line on.


This will not work (or will be seriously suboptimal) if there is only one other person on board.


There are a number of other solutions, but in rough seas a really big problem is the rolling and pitching of the boat, pulling the boom way out with a preventer is a good way to recover the casualty without bashing him/her into the side.


We practiced this a lot, with every member of our crew going into icy water (in a drysuit) and getting pulled out one by one, so everyone had experience.