What's Your Opinion? Firearms or Not?

Hellosailor, it is especially disconcerting at 10:00 at night when they are out in full force boarding boats. But, that is another thread The coasties do seem to get a little nervous when you are better armed than they are. I have to say that I have read every post on this thread, and even with Sean's experience, and a few others that I am aware of, I am not convinced. I will not carry a firearm on my boat. I still believe that a certain level of caution, and a logical aproach to any potential situation will allow you to prevail. THere will always be exceptions, and as horrible as they are, they are statistically few and far between. While I have no desire to be that one in 10000, I am satisfied that I can effectively reduce those odds with some basic common sense.

[seafox]

Sean, what difference would have having a gun made with your grifter? Would you have kept the barrel pointed at him throughout your dealings in case he made "his move"? Chances are if he was going to do anything he would have used your gun on you.
It would be him who decided the time and place and how far he was going to go. You would have to react to whatever happened. He would be proactive and you reactive. Probably easier to shoot him before he got on to the boat and save yourself all the worry.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Kai Nui

... While I have no desire to be that one in 10000, I am satisfied that I can effectively reduce those odds with some basic common sense.

I haven’t found rational judgment to be so widespread, as to characterize it as “common sense”.
Notwithstanding, Sean’s sagacious judgment resolved the potentially dangerous episode, without resort to forearms.
He demonstrated the instincts to intuit peril, and the intelligence to devise and implement an appropriate and proportionate strategy, producing an efficacious result.
He avoided unnecessary* violence, and it’s inevitably disagreeable aftermath. Remember the “law of unintended consequences”.

*unnecessary by definition - he achieved his intended result, without it.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Before finding this thread a little while ago I had never even thought about having firearms aboard. Of course I am not actually away on an extended trip, let alone in the Caribbean, US of A or anywhere that I am likely to meet armed robbers or Pirates.

Having said that, it may well be that one day I will get off my backside and down to the Med for a while, who knows! Guns? no, but maybe some "dual use" weaponary and a bit of thought.

Agree that keeping folk off in the first place is the key. but accepting that if I am ever approach by a boat load of folk with AK47's then I am fooked whatever I do - all I can reasonably do is hope they only rob me.

Stopping folk coming on board when at sea who are not armed to the teeth, but "just" relying on numbers / edged weapons (or even "just" waving a handgun or rifle at me) is I guess down to assessing their "attitude" and giving them "attitude" back, but without forcing them to open fire at me by waving my own gun around - but to accept that if they start shooting even a warning, then for me it WILL work! I figure also the fact of not having a boat that looks like it contains a million dollars worth of goodies to count in my favour when trying to raise the aggravation vs reward factor. At night I would favour using a high powered spotlamp to both see who they were / what they had onboard weapons wise and to disorientate them about what / who I was.

In practice I think boarders are more likely when moored, to which the first line of defence is to be aware of the risks in the area and if assessed to be too great, not staying on my own in a secluded area. But I think that unless keeping a 24/7 watch that it would be impossible to rely on no one ever sneaking aboard, even with a couple of discreet but visible "Beware of the Dog" stickers (few folk like dealing with dogs, too much aggro).

Now, I don't want to ever confront someone head on in the dark. Cos' I am a natural born coward!, with a healthy sense of self preservation Also I figure that if they do not know whether I am armed that if they have a gun and are confronted unexpectedly by me then it may be the "sensible" thing for them to open fire.

What I would want them to do is to f#ck off quickly and go and look for an easier target without being directly threatened by me. I have found that you do have to give folk a way to back out, preferably without losing "face". For this I think maybe having a strobe on the mast that could be switched on from down below (I know it's against the Regs for use at sea ) and a manually triggered alarm (and even a tape of a barking dog?!!). Noise and flashing lights both to attract assistance, but mainly to unsettle the intruder and also make him unsure whether help is arriving - I figure if someone has chosen to sneak aboard that it means that they would prefer not to deal with a confrontation (of course even in a crowded anchorage I would not actually expect help to be arriving! - plenty of folk peering through cabin windows, but probably not a lot of actual "help" ).

Weapons wise would really be as a last resort (and only against someone who had no gun! and won't take no for an answer or to help me "wave off" boarders at sea). Maybe a Machete (or even a Cutlass!) onboard and a speargun on the basis that both of these are easily explainable on board a yacht travelling as self sufficent and wouldn't be a disaster if ever confiscated. My thinking with idea of the Speargun is that it is a "distance" weapon, but is still not something that would automatically force an armed man to open fire from 30 feet away, just enough to make someone with a Machete think twice from 10 feet. and also a lot easier for me to use to injure someone than trying to plunge a knife into a person. (I figure that it is best all round to avoid violence and to out of my way to do so, even at the "cost" of my pride (Fortunately I have no "pride" and am quite happy with the maxim "he who turns and runs away lives to run another day" ) - Because I do know that if if if it ever comes down to actually using violence then it has to be done "properly", no quarter expected and none given Not really my cup of tea.......of course by then I would be wishing I had a gun. A big one )

FWIW I have been in a couple of situations of having had guns pointed at me which ended up ok (I am still here!) and strangely enough these incidents do not in anyway compare with other incidents where I have been truly in fear of my life (By that I mean truly truly terrified ) - where I know that if I had had access to a Nuclear Weapon let alone a hand gun I would have used it. Terror (true terror) will make someone do anything. Still, they were all incidents that I will admit (online and anon!) that I did play at least a small (??!!) part in getting myself into the sh#t - mainly by thinking I knew what I was doing / being far too cocky.


I also wouldn't mind making it down to Thailand and then onto NZ, which I accept would take me through areas that were "of concern" - so perhaps my ideas would be changed, certainly the route through the Suez Canal and onto seas off Somalia do seem to be somewhere that I would normally try and avoid! - not sure how the risks could be reduced, but that is something I can think of later! and will probably never happen!


Oh yeah and an American Flag off the stern!, with the boat plastered in the stickers supporting the NRA!

[Canibul]

If you are going to use a speargun for self defense, I suggest you practice with it in air, a LOT. They dont have the same trajectory in air, only go 20-30 ft, are not accurate, and the recoil will surprise you.

I do agree that holding a cocked speargun on a knife wielding intruder will be pretty effective. Do you plan to keep one cocked and ready? And remember you only have one shot. Wait til he commits and the range is certain.

[ssullivan]

I'm sorry to say, but you folks who are "anti gun" and thinking like seafox here are missing the point entirely. A gun is not a toy. It's not something you waive around at the drop of a hat. It's something you have as a backup in the extreme case that you come under attack. It is not a preventitive measure. It's something that can stack the odds in your favor if you are in a situation such as that of the Hawkes. Once an unwelcome boarder attempts to take over your boat and threaten to kill and/or tries to kill you and your wife - at least you can go out trying instead of complying.

Seafox's post makes no sense, as a gun would not have come into play in my story at all. It comes into play as the story progresses to that of the Hawkes.

Originally Posted by seafox

Sean, what difference would have having a gun made with your grifter? Would you have kept the barrel pointed at him throughout your dealings in case he made "his move"? Chances are if he was going to do anything he would have used your gun on you.
It would be him who decided the time and place and how far he was going to go. You would have to react to whatever happened. He would be proactive and you reactive. Probably easier to shoot him before he got on to the boat and save yourself all the worry.

[Canibul]

Well, I am certainly not 'anti-gun'. Was an NRA member for most of my life, although I am not active in the shooting sports anymore. Guns illegal here, dang Brits..

I still keep a Marlin 30-30 with a 4x scope with family in Texas in case I get a chance to do some hunting. My handloads for it will put five rounds inside a 2 inch circle at 100 yards, and thats not horrible for a short barelled lever-action.

[ssullivan]

Eh... I may have come across a little gruff on that last post. Seafox's trivialization of my experience definitely helped me to be gruff.

However, I'm retiring from the thread... no use debating it. We'll all have different opinions. I agree guns are no good outside one's own country anyway, so better means would be good for actual cruising. Plus, I've never run into problems in all the years I spent in the Caribbean. The problems I've had are close to urban centers in the USA.

Over and out....

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by Canibul

If you are going to use a speargun for self defense, I suggest you practice with it in air, a LOT. They dont have the same trajectory in air, only go 20-30 ft, are not accurate, and the recoil will surprise you.

Must confess have never used one - but figured on the limited range and little accuracy. Didn't know about the recoil. Cheers. No doubt a bit of practice would be called for.

I do agree that holding a cocked speargun on a knife wielding intruder will be pretty effective. Do you plan to keep one cocked and ready? And remember you only have one shot. Wait til he commits and the range is certain.

Hopefully it will scare off the "normal" (??) day to day opportunist robber, albeit not exactly a weapon of first choice against half a dozen well armed Banditos, smacked out of their heads on whatever!

Cocked and ready? probably not...........and in practice I suspect it will end up stuffed down the quarter berth........."somewhere" I am happy to accept (well, sort of!) that it will only be of use in limited circumstances, but I figure of most comfort if I / we are down below and someone boards at night, give me a bit of time to get ready / find the bl##dy thing!

My first plan is.............never to be in a position where I need it / to wish I had something far more useful.

Regarding the Hawkes, I read the Website yesterday. Really disturbing about how almost casual and organised the guys went about it. Bringing the woman and the baby to meet them I think would have reassured many of us (she didn't know?, maybe not the specifics, but I owuld bet on that she knew what was going to be happening alright ). Whilst a gun would have been nice to have onboard and I obviously can't say that it wouldn't have made a difference (who knows) in this case - I suspect not, as all 3 blokes have to do is wait for the their moment to strike first, with the advantage of total surprise. Once you have trusted someone enough to expose yourself like that I really can't see any way out if someones intentions are in fact totally murderous.

[hellosailor]

KN-
"The coasties do seem to get a little nervous when you are better armed than they are." Funny thing about "uniforms" they are all outright terrified at the sight of strangers with guns. Which, oddly enough, is what THEY appear to be, from the eyes of most folks seeing them.
Until you add the perspective shift of "when you need them". Again, both ways.<G>

I think what we need is boot control. That's right, no shoes, no boots, no sandals, if we banned all possession and use of shoeleather, Capn. Slocum's carpet tacks on deck would be all the protection any of us ever needed. "The Shoe As Weapon". Just ask any roach how effective it can be.<G>

Here here! Bring back the thumb tack

[Canibul]

people South of 25 deg. should be required to boat naked. that would solve it.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Canibul

people South of 25 deg. should be required to boat naked. that would solve it.

Canibul's obviously a neandertal conservative. As a pinko liberal, I would have specified 27 degrees (N or S).

As a natural born polar bear, I would put it closer to 48 N or S, but I have to admit, the better half prefers slightly lower numbers

[Canibul]

Ah, yes, forgive me. I had forgotten that pecularity of living in northern climates....'shrinkage'...

And I thought of a ceremony for crossing the equator.....but not on this family forum....