All electric galley: rice cooker

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

That's pretty specific. You're going to have to run the numbers for me there, with footnotes.

Why would I when this is general knowledge? I know induction is still the upcoming technology in the USA but the rest of the world has been converted many years ago and all the tests and data have been confirmed, repeated etc.

First hit on Google: https://www.pcrichard.com/library/bl...s/2300371.pcra

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Propane is great for cooking . Instant heat control . And only about 1 oz of moisture per 1k btu per hour

Let me put this in another way to show how much impact on humidity and condensation burning propane has: for every 1 pound of propane burned, 1.6 pounds of water is created

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Reading this thread makes me realise why everyone needs a 50ft yacht. you need somewhere for:

a. The rice maker.
b. The bread maker
c. The ice maker
d. The instant pot
e. The induction stove plus a spare.
f. The electric coffee maker plus grinder.
g. The generator to power this lot.
h. More batteries than a Los Angeles class sub
h. The air con to cool the boat down with this lot running.

Whilst I don't subscribe to Sean's (Boat Alexandra) minimalist approach, sometimes a gas stove with two rings and oven does seem remarkably simple low tech and low maintenance

Were does the rice maker live when you are rolling downwind in a F5?

The main reason for needing a 50’ yacht is that it can sail anywhere in double the comfort of a 40’ yacht. The way it’s movement in big seas improves when reaching 50’ is substantial.

But there is more: at one end of the spectrum we have boats taken out on the lake during the weekends while on the other end we have boats that are self reliant, spending many months in uninhabited or remote, primitive areas where there are no shops, boat repair services, faucets, propane filling stations etc. so boat and crew need to be 100% self reliant.

This means no instant rice, no loafs of bread from the bakery, no take-out food let alone restaurants, no Starbucks and no grid. You will have to do it all yourself, every day. In times past every family used to do that but those were big families with many hands and the only spare time they had was when sitting around the fire just before heading to bed. There was certainly no time to travel and explore the world.

I know there are sailors who just eat beans, cold and straight from the can and they can say bread makers are just a luxury. Most people however can not sustain that lifestyle and when baking bread only costs 5 minutes of time per loaf, for a couple sailing their boat, modern technology and appliances allow them to spend more time on exploring, meeting the different cultures etc. We can easily stay away for a year or more and that is without replenishing supplies by fishing, hunting etc.

So yes, that is why such boats exist

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Let me put this in another way to show how much impact on humidity and condensation burning propane has: for every 1 pound of propane burned, 1.6 pounds of water is created

and where do you get your incorrect data?
Btw you do realise that burning of propane will produce ess than 1/3 of the moisture that is placed in the same space by the simple act of breathing.

[Dsanduril]

The balanced chemical equation for the combustion of propane is:

C3H8+5O2→3CO2+4H2O

For each mole of propane burned four moles of water are created. Molar weight of propane is 44g/mol, water 18g/mol. 4x18/44 = 1.6.

[BjarneK]

A few more facts. In table 1 of this paper, you can see how much water is lost to breathing at rest at various surrounding temperatures and humidities:

https://journals.viamedica.pl/advanc...ad/27572/22247

The numbers in the table range from around 7 to 21 mL / h. If we assume 15 mL / h as an example, that corresponds to 360 mL per 24 hours. Using the 1.6 humidity factor for burning propane means that this corresponds to burning 225 g of propane. With this propane usage, a 10 kg tank would last 44 days.

So if your 10 kg tank of propane lasts about a month and a half and you spend all day inside your boat, the humidity from breathing of one person equals the humidity from your propane usage. Feel free to adjust number of people, propane usage, environmental temperature and humidity to make calculations for your situation.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by newhaul

and where do you get your incorrect data?
Btw you do realise that burning of propane will produce ess than 1/3 of the moisture that is placed in the same space by the simple act of breathing.

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

The balanced chemical equation for the combustion of propane is:

C3H8+5O2→3CO2+4H2O

For each mole of propane burned four moles of water are created. Molar weight of propane is 44g/mol, water 18g/mol. 4x18/44 = 1.6.

Thank you for providing the equation Dsanduril. I don’t take the effort anymore because I bet I’m the only one thanking you for it (it’s effort wasted on people who just continue to find another angle to keep their heads in the sand )

And there you have it newhaul: scientific fact, not fake opinion. For every pound of propane burned, you get 1.6 pounds of water in the interior of your boat. Everybody who has been camping or boating with propane in colder climates know the condensation issues that come with it... they just don’t realize how bad it actually is. In warm, tropical and subtropical climates, it translates to that smell of mold and rotting wood. Even without propane, in many climates you do need A/C or dehumidifiers to have the luxury of your boat not rotting away

I have a great idea for people who love propane, are against the use of induction, air conditioning and other such spoiled luxuries: instead of limiting moisture by switching from propane to induction, why not just keep using propane and stop breathing?! I have just read that this is a reduction in moisture -three times- as good as the switch to induction so you can probably skip the A/C as well

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by BjarneK

A few more facts. In table 1 of this paper, you can see how much water is lost to breathing at rest at various surrounding temperatures and humidities:

https://journals.viamedica.pl/advanc...ad/27572/22247

The numbers in the table range from around 7 to 21 mL / h. If we assume 15 mL / h as an example, that corresponds to 360 mL per 24 hours. Using the 1.6 humidity factor for burning propane means that this corresponds to burning 225 g of propane. With this propane usage, a 10 kg tank would last 44 days.

So if your 10 kg tank of propane lasts about a month and a half and you spend all day inside your boat, the humidity from breathing of one person equals the humidity from your propane usage. Feel free to adjust number of people, propane usage, environmental temperature and humidity to make calculations for your situation.

So, with two people aboard and only spending half your time inside the cabin... you only get equal moisture from breathing compared to propane use instead of the factor of 3 stated before?! Darn it, that means that even without breathing you still need A/C or dehumidifier

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Why would I when this is general knowledge? I know induction is still the upcoming technology in the USA but the rest of the world has been converted many years ago and all the tests and data have been confirmed, repeated etc.

First hit on Google: https://www.pcrichard.com/library/bl...s/2300371.pcra

So you are only talking about heat transfer efficiency. Fine. I tend to think of converting diesel to electric to charge batteries to inverter to induction vice propane. Not many boats can sustain induction cooking on solar.

Oh - I have no issue with aircon. I think it's wonderful.

Originally Posted by BjarneK

In table 1 of this paper, you can see how much water is lost to breathing at rest at various surrounding temperatures and humidities:

https://journals.viamedica.pl/advanc...ad/27572/22247

The numbers in the table range from around 7 to 21 mL / h. If we assume 15 mL / h as an example, that corresponds to 360 mL per 24 hours. Using the 1.6 humidity factor for burning propane means that this corresponds to burning 225 g of propane. With this propane usage, a 10 kg tank would last 44 days.

The average person in average conditions also sweats 0.5l/day.

We haven't talked about showers yet. Or about the humidity in the air to start with.

All of this is irrelevant if you're running aircon even part of the day to dry out the boat. Many people of course don't.

I think humidity from propane is a red herring. I just push the companionway slide forward when I cook and don't have a humidity problem.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

So you are only talking about heat transfer efficiency. Fine. I tend to think of converting diesel to electric to charge batteries to inverter to induction vice propane. Not many boats can sustain induction cooking on solar.

Efficiency of converting diesel to cooking is definitely a concern for those that can't cook on solar alone. But if you have 1 or 2 times in a day where you need to run the generator for something anyway, the penalty is smaller. That efficiency loss also needs to be weighed against the simplicity and convenience factor of carrying 1 less type of fuel and whether not needing space for a propane locker offers you any advantage (that one is likely boat size / design dependent).

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

So you are only talking about heat transfer efficiency. Fine. I tend to think of converting diesel to electric to charge batteries to inverter to induction vice propane. Not many boats can sustain induction cooking on solar.

Oh - I have no issue with aircon. I think it's wonderful.



The average person in average conditions also sweats 0.5l/day.

We haven't talked about showers yet. Or about the humidity in the air to start with.

All of this is irrelevant if you're running aircon even part of the day to dry out the boat. Many people of course don't.

I think humidity from propane is a red herring. I just push the companionway slide forward when I cook and don't have a humidity problem.

there ya go and we all do it without thinking. Not to mention that a boat cabin is not a hermetically sealed environment .
On my boat there is no air conditioner no induction cook top I cook with propane . I use a rice cooker because its free to use . My solar recharges my Lfp bank . ( 250ah is way to small to support induction. )

30 minutes solar cost is well worth it for 2 days of rice. Saves me propane / money .

After all I'm only a 29 ft boat . Considered big for world cruising when she was new .

[Auspicious]

I’m repeating myself in this message.

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Efficiency of converting diesel to cooking is definitely a concern for those that can't cook on solar alone. But if you have 1 or 2 times in a day where you need to run the generator for something anyway, the penalty is smaller. That efficiency loss also needs to be weighed against the simplicity and convenience factor of carrying 1 less type of fuel and whether not needing space for a propane locker offers you any advantage (that one is likely boat size / design dependent).

My issue on efficiency is that comparisons should be apples to apples and end-to-end. One can make a reasonable case for electric cars until you suddenly need to outrun wildfires in one. The edge conditions (including failure modes) take the zing out of snazzy ideas.

There is great appeal to reducing fuel carriage. I’d love a 10 HP diesel outboard that didn’t weigh more than I do.

Originally Posted by newhaul

there ya go and we all do it without thinking. Not to mention that a boat cabin is not a hermetically sealed environment .
On my boat there is no air conditioner no induction cook top I cook with propane . I use a rice cooker because its free to use . My solar recharges my Lfp bank . ( 250ah is way to small to support induction. )

There are lots of factors that have value in comparing induction to propane cooking. Electrical system capacity is one. The elements of catastrophic failure (fire for induction, explosion for propane). Individual personal fear. Failure modes and effects. Reliability, maintainability, and availability. I think contribution to humidity is a red herring BUT if you (any you, not you you) want to talk about it fine as long as it is in context of daily contribution to total humidity (ambient, breathing, sweating, cooking, showers at least).

ETA: The US military tried really hard to get to a single fuel. They were astoundingly successful except for small outboards on Navy and Army small boats. Lots of twin Hondas on security boats.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

I’m repeating myself in this message.


My issue on efficiency is that comparisons should be apples to apples and end-to-end. One can make a reasonable case for electric cars until you suddenly need to outrun wildfires in one. The edge conditions (including failure modes) take the zing out of snazzy ideas.

There is great appeal to reducing fuel carriage. I’d love a 10 HP diesel outboard that didn’t weigh more than I do.


There are lots of factors that have value in comparing induction to propane cooking. Electrical system capacity is one. The elements of catastrophic failure (fire for induction, explosion for propane). Individual personal fear. Failure modes and effects. Reliability, maintainability, and availability. I think contribution to humidity is a red herring BUT if you (any you, not you you) want to talk about it fine as long as it is in context of daily contribution to total humidity (ambient, breathing, sweating, cooking, showers at least).

ETA: The US military tried really hard to get to a single fuel. They were astoundingly successful except for small outboards on Navy and Army small boats. Lots of twin Hondas on security boats.

Diesel Outboard Motors 5 to 80hp 4stroke 2,3,4 Cylinders water cooled

[s/v Jedi]

The risk of explosion does not exist for induction, but the risk of fire exists for both and is a multiple higher for propane as well. There is open flame and very high temperatures that can set fire to oil, grease etc. Induction cooking does not get hotter than the contents of the pot/pan.

About propane to heat in food vs diesel to heat in food. Batteries are not involved when a genset is running. When batteries need to be recharged with diesel to sustain induction cooking, then it is better to run the genset while cooking, which eliminates all the battery related losses. The battery + inverter use for induction makes sense for when the energy comes from solar or alternators on engines that need to run anyway.
We are in a halfway setup, where about 50% of electric galley energy comes from solar (refrigeration, bread maker, coffee maker, hot breakfast and lunch but the genset runs during dinner making except when the propane grill in the cockpit is used. This is when the A/C runs to remove heat and moisture of the day from the cabin, the water maker runs to replenish water and the battery charger to top off for the night.

[StuM]

To me a big advantage of electrical induction hobs, kettles, multipots, rice cookers etc over propane is greatly reduced waste heat in the galley.


Of course, if you are in a cold climate, that may be a big disadvantage.