Hybrid Engines

[gosstyla]

I have a couple more sea trials scheduled for Monday and Tuesday if they go well I hope to start my passage from 40*S to Panama 9*N next weekend.

With a little luck in a few weeks I may have some data I can contribute to this discussion. Asanagi has an OSSA system 2 X 25 KW gensets and 2 X 35 hp motors

[Simon Slater]

It seems that the controller and electronics are ok ish. the motors are more effiecent but more or less proven technologies.

The use of standard, existing battery technology is useless to a catamaran.

To my mind this is simply a matter of genset selection, there are virtually no PROVEN generators on the market in the formats required, and with the proper decent little engines that can be electronically controlled. OSSA has a beautiful little mercedes 3 cylinder genset but that is it, they have PLANS for other ones.

Here's the biggie and your not going to believe it, but ther are no written marine standards for dc voltages over 48 volts for the pleasure boat industry , even my very Canadian counsel suggested that use of a system without proper standards could be lethal to the company if anybody was seriously injured.

WE also sense that to get the power to the prop that people really want tha twe are going to have to use more than 48 volts.
There appears to be a lot of 6 knot boat speeds quoted, very few of my customers have asked for less horsepower. We also believe that the 48 volt system will not be adequate as you just plain run out of wire capacity, the wiring harness on our 44 already weighs over 200 pounds.

By the way we just installed twin 10kw battery banks in one of our 44's. 80 kilo's each $20,000 each. Customer supplied Lithium polymer, very slick.

[Simon Slater]

Despite the cost I really like the idea of twin gwnsets, it is so much simpler to instal and allows for a an incredibly quiet instal as a centrally located genset is not required. It also puts the weight in the same aproximate area for the designed diesel instal. The electrical hook up is also much easier and concise.

[w42]

Originally Posted by Simon Slater

Has anyone had a chance to read the articles by Nigel Calder in Profesional boatbuilder magazine?. The articles are in number 106 and 107. His thoughts and opinions are I believe the most well thought out to date. It does seem though that he is going to ignore his own conclusions and go ahead with his Hybrid, although is not completly clear.
Simon

I read the articles, but did not get that he was considering hybrid. Maybe I missed it. I talked to him at last years IBEX and he indicated he wasnt convinced pure electric propulsion for an offshore cruising boat was "there" yet. He said electrically assisted diesels "maybe", but there is not much offered in that type of propulsion (I know of the Vetus system, but it is very low power).

Perhaps he has changed his mind.

[Simon Slater]

"Malo" has a newsletter where they talk about the fact that he has sold his brand new boat so that he can experiment with the new digital switching and diesel electric drives. It's in the 2006 malo newsletter.

[w42]

Originally Posted by Simon Slater

"Malo" has a newsletter where they talk about the fact that he has sold his brand new boat so that he can experiment with the new digital switching and diesel electric drives. It's in the 2006 malo newsletter.

Does it indicate what type of D/E drives he is considering? I knew about the digital distributed power. Looks like he is going with the AirPax E-Logic system, which is really cool stuff. Looking forward to his real-world experience on that.

[Simon Slater]

No sense of who is/was planning to use. It is becoming more apparent that however that a holistic and comrehesive design is required to take advantage of th epotential benefits that ca nbe derived from A diesel electric system

[libellula]

so the boat needs to be built up to accept hybrids that perform?

[Simon Slater]

It's mostly about having an integrated aproach to all of the electrical loads on the boat. A/C, hot water heaters, watermakers, 125 amp battery chargers, microwaves, coffe makers. Our 44 has two tv's on it, THIS IS STANDARD. The actual boat isn't greatly affected by the design of the drive train except for subtle hull shapes to support the location of heavy loads
Try making power for all that, DC, AC, 12, 24, 48, 110volt.

[S/V Antares]

I have a problem with the nomenclature used in this thread. The real question is this a Hybrid we are talking about or more specifc: Diesel-Electric Drive. I have seen "Hybrid" systems but none can operate at more than a few minutes without the gen set working. I am not looking to split hairs but call a spade a spade. I have not sceen a drive system more than about 10 kw that can operate without the primary generator on . Advantage? Placement of the power plant. Not much in my book

[Evan]

Hey Simon,

Good to see you on this forum. How's the boat building business? I recall Nigel Calder admitted that he has a few kids to get through college, and writing about his experiences with complex D/E engines and distributed electrical systems will give him lots to write about!

I read the articles in PBB and finally felt that SOMEBODY had the guts to say "The Emperor has no clothes"! It's hard to justify D/E on a fuel saving basis, simplicity, or any other criteria I can think about for a yacht. Yes, installing a genset(s) is simpler, but imagine warranty headaches from some customer whose speed controller circuit board fails in the Bahamas...

So many people think that since hybrid technologies work on cars where there are widely variable load requirements, they must work similarly on boats (where the demand for power underway is much higher as a % of the engine power)

By the way Diane is doing very well as a boating and other writer Diane Selkirk Freelance Writer, and our little boatbuilding project is still underway at CEILYDH UNDER CONSTRUCTION --Woods Meander 40' Catamaran

We miss you every Thanksgiving!
Evan Gatehouse

[bill good]

Simon,
You spoke of lit/polymer batteries. Have I got info wrong about there being an issue with uncontrol fire risk with this type of battery? Even in a car they are considered too much of a risk & surely would not even be accepted within a marina!! I look forward to your reply abou the safety of this type of battery.

Regards Bill Goodward

[Alan Wheeler]

think that since hybrid technologies work on car

I am still to be convinced of that as well. Once again, it just "shifts the pieces around".
The laws of Physics are simple and solid. Here are a few simple golden rules in my language.
Energy is NOT free.
Everytime you convert energy from one form to another, you loose some.
To move something, takes energy, (measured in Watts). The energy(watts) required to move the something, is the same no matter what it is produced from.

[GordMay]

Lithium & Lithium Polymer (LiPoly) batteries are fully charged when each cell has a voltage of 4.2 volts. They are fully discharged when each cell has a voltage of 3.0 volts. It is important not to exceed either the high voltage of 4.2 volts or the low voltage of 3.0 volts.
LiPoly cells should not be charged, nor discharged, at more than a 1C rate. Overcharging a Li-poly battery will likely result in explosion and/or fire. During discharge on load, the load has to be removed as soon as the voltage drops below approximately 3.0 V per cell (used in a series combination), or else the battery will subsequently no longer accept a full charge, and may experience problems holding voltage under load.
Their prime advantage is “form factor” - they can be creatively shaped.

Accordingly, LiPoly batteries are not presently practicable on a boat.

Originally Posted by Simon Slater

By the way we just installed twin 10kw battery banks in one of our 44's. 80 kilo's each $20,000 each. Customer supplied Lithium polymer, very slick.

Simon: I’d be interested in hearing what you, or your client, learn about LiPoly’s over time in use.

[jscott]

I am not up on the boat technology, but it seems that some above are considering DC drive motors.

The toyota concept is to use a variable frequency drive and AC induction motors.

It seems to me with say a 480 v or 600 V (toyota) coupled with VFDs (inverter) would eliminate need for DC other than electronics.

The AC induction motor can also be used to generate power from the diesel engine, indeed there are small land based generators that do this, these motors are lighter and cheaper than the DC or synchronus generators out there.

The drive system efficiencies should reach 70%, but props and motors and engines would be able to operate on their best efficiecy points, for any given condition, which would make up for the lost power, (tranny losses are normally about 10% of driven power).