ITR Marine Heater Review and Installation

[nwdiver]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Hi Nw Diver,
Note that you are from Vancouver, which was my home town. Since we will winter there as liveaboard, how did you calculate your cabin heater sizes and are you happy with it during a cold snap?

My heater is from the era of 4 or 5 zones, my boat is small 38 ft so I bought the 4 zone system which is overkill but it replaced the hot water tank, the demand propane hot water heater and the drip Dickerson cabin heater, it has been tested all the way to Alaska, and spent two winters in Tofino.....I wouldn’t go to forced air or drip heaters ever again.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by wefleenor

Pelagic,

I simply told the builder that my wife can stand anything but cold. When I calculate the internal volume of the boat that I want to heat, or cool, it comes out between 3200-3500 Cu ft. That would provide a factor of about 13-15. I have only been farther north in the summer months, but boat is currently in Portland and for the barely freezing temperatures there the heater does not work very hard to keep it toasty. I do not live on board, but since I live 600 miles away, I do spend a week there almost once a month (except now).

Bill
Double-Wide

Hi Bill,
My wife is from the Philippines and I expect she will be similar as she has very little natural insulation. However the lure of catching salmon has her very excited about us repositioning to Alaska and PNW.
Here are my volume calculations which is smaller than yours at about 3,000 cu ft.
Yet I am looking at the same size 50,000BTU/h as you
Have you ever regretted that it was too big for your needs?

First thoughts about cabin heater selection
We have inside steering, but for sailing will be mostly outside so the Pilothouse heater is oversized for quick makeup

Forward Bunk Cabins and Head/Shwr were the most difficult to figure out as it tapers fast and little room. It is close to the Dinning/Gallet so will get extra heat from there

Our Aft Cabin Area have Hallway/Head/Shwr/Bedroom/Office is private, but we don't need to close the doors because of a dogleg in the hallway.

My first thought was to just go with one large heater and combine the zones, but noise concerns and Spring/ Autumn temperatures made me think to go with a small unit in the bedroom to keep the chill out. and the big one in the hallway, to keep the sound out

Would like some opinions on this and Cabin Heater Selection?

Cheers,
Nick

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by nwdiver

My heater is from the era of 4 or 5 zones, my boat is small 38 ft so I bought the 4 zone system which is overkill but it replaced the hot water tank, the demand propane hot water heater and the drip Dickerson cabin heater, it has been tested all the way to Alaska, and spent two winters in Tofino.....I wouldn’t go to forced air or drip heaters ever again.

Great to hear that. I am looking at the hot water solution as there are a few consideration on what to do and keep? ........ if and when I go back to the Tropics.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by SV__Grace

We just completed our first winter in PNW with our ITR Hurricane Combi 2.

First, to be clear, it is a hydronic heater such as Espar and Webasto, which means that it uses a diesel burner to heat up fluid (coolant) which gets circulated through hoses to heat exchangers that have 12v fans to blow warm air into the cabin, so to me it is a forced air heater, not a radiant heater because it has a fan that forces air over the heating element. If you review the video you provided you will see that clearly. The difference is that you use hoses (2 hoses per register) rather than ducts, which might save some space, but not by much.

We've lived aboard our boat for 3 years now, spending the first two in CA refitting her for full time high latitude cruising. In CA we used the Combi mostly for hot water. It's a great on-demand hot water system (no hot water tank needed). Gets up to full temp within 5 minutes.

During our refit we expanded the heating system of the Combi to 5 registers throughout the boat. This past winter we experienced temps in the low 20's, which our heater easily handled. Other owners tell me that this system can handle temps far lower.

Using the "Summer/Winter" valve on the Combi you can switch between hot water only (5 minutes to cycle up) and hot water + heat (15-20 minutes to cycle up and comes on @50% of the time to keep temp up).

It is a pretty easy unit to service, and the customer service of ITR is great. I have their tech support on speed dial and between texting and phone calls they have been very generous in spending as much time needed to help me figure out and fix any problems.

Thanks for the input on how you have been using it.
My understanding from ITR is that the Chinook, replaces your Hurricane Combi.

For comparison, did you ever do an interior volume calculation for the Nauticat?
What was your total BTU output for the heaters you chose?


One of the things that has attracted me to ITR is that the unit can be self serviced and great that they have been responsive.

They even have a series of 9 YouTube videos on how to do it

TROUBLESHOOTING

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3h4...kjQbmc&index=9

What kind of problems were you having?

[StoneCrab]

It is interesting that "Brickhouse" from the YouTube "Where is Brickhouse" recently installed a heater for high latitude sailing. The went with a wood burning stove siting the availability of fuel and the fact that their experience with diesel heaters is that "everyone loves them when they work". Apparently a down heater waiting for parts is the norm.

"Sailing Uma" also uses a wood burning stove in the main salon.

Collecting wood, carrying it onboard and keeping the wood burner stoked seems like a lot of work. Great ambiance though and if you have a match, very dependable.

Although this doesn't sound like a route you are considering, I thought I'd mention the two channels.

I lived on my boat year round in Chicago for three years. During the winter, I was tied to a dock, so I had power and used 115VAC ceramic heaters. It is surprising how easy it is to heat a boat. One thermostatically controlled 1500 watt heater kept the cabin temps above 75 F down to 45 degrees outside temperature. Two took me to upper 20's and three below that. I was never cold inside the boat during the winter. Condensation only built up inside a few lockers. That was cured with a layer of insulating bubble wrap (that they use around ducts) pushed against the inside of the hull. I have many fond memories of those winters.

Enjoy your adventure.

[VanIslandGuy]

Several years ago we added an Espar Hydronic to our boat. We first hired an installer who has worked with Espar, Webasto and ITR for a two hour consultation to go through our boat and make recommendations on system choice and design. This two hour consult and design time was money well spent and helped us make the best decision as well as planning the installation to make it as easy to service as possible afterwards.

We measured the total volume of airspace to heat to get our needed BTU values, and based it on our non-liveaboard system use for March-November temperatures. This undersized it slightly for Dec-Feb temperatures but we don't normally sail then, and by optimizing the size for realistic use we reduced the risk of short cycling leading to a lot of carbon build up in the burner chamber.

If I were buying a system for year round liveaboard use, I would only look at the ITR systems. The fact that most have an electric element in them allowing them to be used diesel free when on shore power, then efficiently on the diesel when anchored makes it better than the rest. As others have said it also eliminates your hot-water tank freeing up space. The Espar/Webasto's are like Ford/Chevy. ITR is a much higher end and more robust/reliable product with a price to match. However the extra features for liveaboard seem worth it to me.

Remember that you can get creative, have heated towel racks, engine preheating, etc. The bus heaters for each cabin do a great job of ventilating areas of the boat that don't get enough circulation. Our individual cabin heaters all have two speed fan settings as well as off. Once the boat is at temperature keeping the fans on low is usually enough down to freezing and really keeps the noise to a minimum. A good muffler, rubber washers, and engine room insulation helps eliminate any noise from the burner section.

If adding a second system, maybe a diesel fireplace like a Dickensen in the pilothouse would be a nice add on? The only noise they make besides a small internal fan is the ticking from the fuel pump every five seconds or so.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by VanIslandGuy

We measured the total volume of airspace to heat to get our needed BTU values, and based it on our non-liveaboard system use for March-November temperatures. This undersized it slightly for Dec-Feb temperatures but we don't normally sail then, and by optimizing the size for realistic use we reduced the risk of short cycling leading to a lot of carbon build up in the burner chamber.

If I were buying a system for year round liveaboard use, I would only look at the ITR systems.

.

Hi VanIslandguy,
Thanks for all the advice and the point you made about sizing to avoid frequent cycling on and off is something I'm trying to reconcile with year round liveaboard above Lat 49 and cruising during Winter months

My Calculations:
Interior Volume : 3,000 cu ft
x 0.8 furniture allowance: 2,400 cu ft

x15 Above Lat 48 liveaboard: 35,800 BTU required
Chinook Boiler: 50,000 BTU max load
6 heaters for 65ft steel mono: 44,700 BTU

ITR Sales consultant figure it will cycle about 40-60% of the time, using the Chinook and that I will be "safe" with that model.

Is turning on/off 40-60% of the time damaging to system and will that cause premature coking of fuel nozzel as SeaEagle noted was a maintenance issue?

I think it boils down to usage as some of my best cruising memories was heading north up the inside passage Jan/Feb
That was done years ago in a Truant 37 with only a propane heater.

Now I imagine while sailing and keeping a lookout for logs, we are upstairs all dressed for weather and heater shut off.
When we arrive, Heater is turned on and you want insides to heat up quickly....this is where you really appreciate the extra BTU's

Is my thinking right on this?

I hope SteelEagle and other liveaboard travelling in winter, chimes in on this

[nwdiver]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Great to hear that. I am looking at the hot water solution as there are a few consideration on what to do and keep? ........ if and when I go back to the Tropics.

My understanding is the newer systems have the ability to turn off the heating loops and just then have the water heating function for summer use, I do the same thing on my older system by setting the thermostat at its lowest setting 14C, that in summer we never get that cold....

The system is very robust it is was used the Canadian military in Afghanistan for many years, also the parts that wear out are easy to change out, you just need to carry spares if very remote, just like anything that wears out on a boat....

[SV__Grace]

Some responses to the posts above as well as some hard earned knowledge to share-

- The summer/winter valve of our Hurricane Combi 2 (meaning combination water heater and cabin heater) simply closes the circulation of coolant to the heat registers, so in summer mode is heating the coolant that is inside the unit, which requires a lot less cycling time.

- Cycling, meaning the unit turning on to get up to temp, then turning off when at temp, then turning on again when the temp drops below a set point, is normal. The fuel nozzle does get dirty and build up does occur, but it's an easy maintenance task that involves-

- Unscrew and remove cover
- Unscrew and remove cover of burner chamber (easy)
- Loosen thumbscrew to nozzle unit and pull out of housing
- Clean nozzle while still attached, or disconnect a few wires and use wrench to unscrew the tip

- The electric heating function is cool, but it has three limitations- A) only intended for shore power, B) it only heats the water in the unit, which is only about 1.5 gallons, and C) the electric heating element is for heating hot water only, not cabin heat.

So if you need more than than you run the diesel burner and can get unlimited on-demand hot water (within reason- will go lukewarm after a couple of minutes in full blast)

- The exhaust should be mounted high enough to clear the water when sailing. For our high freeboard Nauticat, that's not a problem. For a low slung racer/cruiser you might consider the following options for venting the exhaust-
- Vent to cabin top like a diesel stove/heater
- Vent to stern/transom
- Install exhaust flapper valve like the fishing boats and ships use for their stacks

- Self install- the previous owner of our boat installed our unit himself, and typical of amateur installations, it worked, but is messy (wires, mainly) and I had to undo a few problems he created. The installation manual is pretty thorough and easy to follow, and ITR's tech support is excellent, so self install is completely workable and should be easy enough for a knowledgable amateur.

- Operation, maintenance, and repair- our unit is 3 years old now and was newly installed with we purchased Grace and moved aboard. Operation is straightforward but not intuitive, you have to know how to operate your unit per your installation choices.

For example, to turn on the unit for hot water in summer mode, we have a separate switch to turn the burner on and the circulation pump, which circulates the coolant in the unit and must be on to work. This is the easiest mode of operation.

For winter mode to heat the cabin and have hot water, turn the valve to the winter position and turn on the power to the thermostats and heat registers.

Turning on the AC electric heating element, for us, requires shore power and turning on the AC breaker switch to the unit, and a separate on/off switch.

Maintaining the unit, assuming no coolant leaks, is pretty easy. The parts that wear out and need replacing are pretty easy to access and switch out.

Repair is a whole nother ball game. The manual is not comprehensive and after 3 years of calling and texting my best friend at ITR I have assembled the knowledge and instructions that I wish the manual had. "Flame out" is a good example; there is a whole 6 page PDF I received from ITR upon request to trouble shoot why the unit stops working, which should be in the manual!

All the routine things to check and parts to examine are not mentioned in the manual. For example, there is a "flame sensor," a very simple, small part that uses light to sense whether the flame is on or not. If the unit stops working because soot or dirt covers the tiny hole and blocks the beam, all you have to do is wipe it clean, a 10 minute procedure from start (unscrew and open cover) to diagnose and fix, but it's not in the manual!

- Fuel consumption- I don't see fuel consumption information anywhere online or in the manual, so it might be helpful to share that the manufacturer says my unit uses .4 gallons per hour. So if it takes 5 minutes in summer mode to cycle up, and 2 minutes every 30 minutes or so to stay up to temp, by my math (which is not my strong suit) that is 101 minutes of cycling per 24 hour day, or a little less than 1.75 gallons of diesel per day, which seems pretty good to me. In reality we turn it on when we want hot water (shower and dishes) and turn it off when done. Heating during cold weather is, again, a whole nother ball game. This past winter (our first in the PNW) our unit takes @20 minutes to cycle up to temp in winter mode, then cycles on every 3-5 minutes or so for 3-5 minutes to keep the temp up. The manufacturer says 50% cycle time in cold weather in winter mode is normal, so if the unit is running 12 hours per day that would be a little less than 5 gallons of diesel per day, or 150 per month, @$540.00 per month at $3.60 per gallon. In reality we turn it on in the morning and off at night, and only have it running if the interior temp is uncomfortably cold. I'm seriously considering adding a Dickinson diesel heater which would be much quieter and more economical to run 24 hours per day.

- Electrical power needed- the fuel pump, compression pump, circulation fan and circulation pump all use 12v power when cycling. When the unit runs in summer mode and the temp is up, the circulation pump and fan run continuously, but don't consume much power. When heating the boat the heat register fans all use power, plus with 50% cycle time, the electrical power usage is significant on top of the fuel usage. If we were to have it on 24 hours per day at anchor to heat our boat in winter we would have to run the generator every day rather than every 2 or 3 days as we do now, so you must add the cost of generating the electrical power needed if you don't have shore power or robust solar/wind capacity.

From the above you might get the impression we are dissatisfied with our unit, but that is not the case. We love it for a hot water solution and it's the best hydronic solution for heat. We want to supplement it with a Dickinson type heater for economics, but not to replace it. And we wish the manual were a couple of inches thicker to make the learning curve and trouble shooting easier.

[SV__Grace]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Thanks for the input on how you have been using it.
My understanding from ITR is that the Chinook, replaces your Hurricane Combi.
For comparison, did you ever do an interior volume calculation for the Nauticat?
What was your total BTU output for the heaters you chose?

What kind of problems were you having?

Hi Pelagic, I'm not a great numbers guy, so I did not calculate interior volume and did not calculate BTUs. My unit can handle 5 heat exchangers/registers of a run of no more than 200 feet of hose, so that's what we installed. The heat registers were chosen for their size, being able to fit where we need them.

The end result worked fine this past winter, our first winter in PNW (we even had SNOW, a big deal for a CA couple!) and on a typical 25-35 degree winter morning, after having the heat off over night with an interior temp of 45-50 degrees, the boat will get toasty within an hour and the thermostat will keep the temp where we want it. So it works!

See my post above for more info, including "challenges" that I've had.

[dannc]

This guy built his own steel Buehler designed troller. George did not call it a Diesel Duck for some reason. Anyway, the builder's name is Peter and he built the boat in the San Francisco bay area and documented the build on a blog. This link talks about his hurricane heater and the Dickinson stove they installed, Building Koloa (Kama Hele): Dickinson Bulkhead Mounted Stove.

One of my questions in sizing a heater, does the calculation take into account insulation. My concern is that most boats are plastic and thus not often insulated but a metal boat is almost always insulated.

Peter has been living on his boat for years now and he installed the system himself so if you can get into contact with him he could be a good source of information.

He as another blog about their travels now that the boat is built, Kama Hele Cruising

I could not find a email address for him, but I remember he put it out in the comments. Might be a bit of work to contact Peter but he might be very helpful.

Later,
Dan

[SteelEagle]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Is turning on/off 40-60% of the time damaging to system and will that cause premature coking of fuel nozzel as SeaEagle noted was a maintenance issue?

The fuel nozzle isn't much of an issue, I cleaned it with the 3 year service and it wasn't looked at prior to that. I was amazed at how easy it is to get at, disassemble, and clean. Since we use our heater for hot water too, it does cycle on and off quite a bit, doesn't seem to be a big issue. The combustion chamber had only slight carbon buildup, which was easily vacuumed out.

Originally Posted by Pelagic

When we arrive, Heater is turned on and you want insides to heat up quickly....this is where you really appreciate the extra BTU's

Is my thinking right on this?

Once we had to leave our boat for 10 days (long story) and when we returned she was cold-soaked to about 38F, our boat warmed up to 72F in 2.5 hours, without using the electric element (35k BTU).

When hooked up to the dock shore power we do use the electric heating element, which adds another 5k BTU for a total of 40k BTU, obviously, this is not available sailing.

Originally Posted by Pelagic

My first thought was to just go with one large heater and combine the zones, but noise concerns and Spring/ Autumn temperatures made me think to go with a small unit in the bedroom to keep the chill out. and the big one in the hallway, to keep the sound out

Would like some opinions on this and Cabin Heater Selection?

We do have a fan/heater right under our bed, I can't hear or feel it fwiw.

We have four of the standard cabin fans (#6002, 8700 BTU/h). One is on its own zone and thermostat in the bow serving that stateroom and head. The other three fans on a second zone and thermostat, one in the upper salon, one in the lower salon, and one in the aft master stateroom and head.

Each zone seems to have plenty of heat available, however, I really wish and will see about changing the master stateroom to it's own zone and thermostat.

Originally Posted by SV__Grace

"Flame out" is a good example; there is a whole 6 page PDF I received from ITR upon request to trouble shoot why the unit stops working, which should be in the manual!

All the routine things to check and parts to examine are not mentioned in the manual. For example, there is a "flame sensor," a very simple, small part that uses light to sense whether the flame is on or not. If the unit stops working because soot or dirt covers the tiny hole and blocks the beam, all you have to do is wipe it clean, a 10 minute procedure from start (unscrew and open cover) to diagnose and fix, but it's not in the manual!

Thanks for sharing this. We had a few flameout issues as well, we ended up replacing the flame sensor and that seemed to cure the problem, will try just cleaning it off next time!

We also had a fuel supply issue, trying to draw from our keel fuel tank when it was low was too much of a challenge (not to mention it's in the manual that there is a fuel draw height limitation), we added a small lift pump to fix that (not the heater's fault).

Originally Posted by Pelagic

My Boat is a bit longer at 55ft on deck (not counting Bowspirit) but skinner for that length, and I doubt if she has as good a temperature insulation as your boat.
So I just don't know yet if that 50,000BTU/h is overkill??

I would think if our boat was 7-10' longer it would still be plenty of heat, but it really comes down to how well your boat is insulated. Our hull is insulated well, but our windows are not and we lose most of our heat there. On a very cold day (0-5F) if we cover our windows, the heater runs about half of what it would otherwise.

Please keep us posted on how you mount your exhaust or any other solutions you come up with, we would love to be able to run it all the time. Our heater is mounted in a similar location to where you are proposing.

You could probably get away with either the H2 or the Chinook and be fine, having said that I would probably get the Chinook in your case. Beautiful boat by the way!

[SV__Grace]

Originally Posted by SteelEagle

When hooked up to the dock shore power we do use the electric heating element, which adds another 5k BTU for a total of 40k BTU, obviously, this is not available sailing.


I would think if our boat was 7-10' longer it would still be plenty of heat, but it really comes down to how well your boat is insulated. Our hull is insulated well, but our windows are not and we lose most of our heat there. On a very cold day (0-5F) if we cover our windows, the heater runs about half of what it would otherwise.

SteelEagle (great name!), the electric heating element in our Hurricane just heats the coolant inside the unit (for summer mode use) and is completely ineffective at helping to heat the coolant circulating in the hoses. Are you sure that yours helps heat your boat? If so, how?

Window insulation tip:

At the advice of some PNW boating friends we "shrink wrapped" all of our windows, ports, and hatches (except for the galley hatches for ventilation) with 3M window insulation film and like magic, no more condensation (it was bad) and greatly helped our insulation.

Easy to apply, the film is clear so you don't really notice it there. Just put the double stick tape around the edge (clean with alcohol first), cut the clear plastic (just a smidge thicker than saran wrap) to size, apply to the tape to cover the window, and use a blow dryer to shrink wrap it. 15 bucks worth was enough to cover all the windows, ports, and hatches (and there are many) on our Nauticat 43 (47 if you include the bowsprit, 50 if you include the dinghy on davits).

Easy peasy

[SteelEagle]

Originally Posted by SV__Grace

SteelEagle (great name!), the electric heating element in our Hurricane just heats the coolant inside the unit (for summer mode use) and is completely ineffective at helping to heat the coolant circulating in the hoses. Are you sure that yours helps heat your boat? If so, how?

We were not aware it only heats the water, thanks for the info!

Originally Posted by SV__Grace

Window insulation tip:

At the advice of some PNW boating friends we "shrink wrapped" all of our windows, ports, and hatches (except for the galley hatches for ventilation) with 3M window insulation film and like magic, no more condensation (it was bad) and greatly helped our insulation.

Easy to apply, the film is clear so you don't really notice it there. Just put the double stick tape around the edge (clean with alcohol first), cut the clear plastic (just a smidge thicker than saran wrap) to size, apply to the tape to cover the window, and use a blow dryer to shrink wrap it. 15 bucks worth was enough to cover all the windows, ports, and hatches (and there are many) on our Nauticat 43 (47 if you include the bowsprit, 50 if you include the dinghy on davits).

Easy peasy

I wish we knew this six months ago! Thanks for the tip, do you leave the wrapping on your windows year-round or redo it each winter? Both sides of the window, or just the interior?

[hpeer]

FWIW,

I had a “professional” install an Espar D4 in our small boat. I want there to strangle him and he laid a bunch of hose using up space. Contrary to my specific instructions.

In self installed an Espar D4 in our 44’ center cockpit, I used under 3’ of hose total. I was able to install it so that the exhaust blows up the middle of the saloon. Perfect.

We have lived on that boat through a couple of winters, off and on. Down to about 10°F or -12°C. More frequently it was in the teens. Had to shovel snow off the exhaust at times. I closed off the forepeak and the aft cabin and were cool but fine. At night I would leave the aft cabin door open and we used sleeping bags. A single D4 is not really enough heater for that boat in those conditions, but it worked OK as we closed off spaces.

If I were to live aboard more seriously in cold climates I would rather install 2 completely independent heaters to do the zoning. That way if one craps out your still have some heated area. In fact I would have 2 heaters and a complete spare, the Espars are small enough for that. You’ve a big boat, maybe 3? Don’t know.

Having 2 heaters drastically reduces duct run and losses in those runs. It also give you more flexibility over the zoning. If you think creatively you too may be able to use little ducting. And if you don’t need to heat an area, say the aft cabin, then don’t run it.

I did install a kero bulkhead heater in the aft cabin but rarely use it. That was more because the opportunity availed itself and I had all the parts handy, except the flue pipe. I do take heat seriously.

Anyway, that’s my 2¢. Good luck.