MIT Student Product Development

[robinw]

Hi All,

I'm a mechanical engineering student at MIT in the US. I'm currently taking a class we call 2.009 Product Engineering Processes and it is one of the final classes that all MIT mechanical engineering students take before they graduate. It brings all the knowledge that we have learned throughout our time at MIT and brings it all together in the development of a real-world product.

This year, my team (Orange Team) is working to re-design the deck suits and survival suits often used in cold climate sailing, boating, and commercial fishing. Our current vision for this product is to create a device that is comfortable, provides ease of movement, has an internal heating mechanism/insulator, is waterproof, and has a flotation mechanism. We envision that this product will be worn at all times and will allow the user to survive for several hours in 0'C water.

Would anyone with experience in cold climate sailing/fishing/boating be able to comment on our current aspirations for this product? What sort of problems (if any) have you experienced with current market deck suits and survival suits? What attributes are you guys looking for the most in these types of products? Do you even wear these sort of products? If not, then why? Any other anecdotes related to this type of product or problem would also be much appreciated.

Thank you,
MIT 2.009 Orange Team

[Mediator]

You should talk to students on the MIT sailing team. They will have a lot to say about Gill/Kokatat/Helly Hansen drysuits and their biggest flaws. They sail through Thanksgiving and start again in February, as do I on my team.

I might start by designing a drysuit with a neck seal that was comfortable and foot seals that didn't leak after a month. The zippers are also notoriously hard to use after they get clogged with salt.

I wouldn't worry about making an insulated drysuit. If it is dry then you can wear layers underneath for warmth. Some way to heat the foot seals would be REALLY nice though...

[cyan]

Might also want to PM the CF member "thinwater" who I think has done a bunch of real-world testing in such suits.

[Sailmonkey]

I’m a little atypical in the amount I sweat when exerting. I’ve yet to find a dry suit I was comfortable in when dinghy sailing. Dress lightly enough to be comfortable when working means freezing when not exerting.

A truly breathable waterproof textile would be a good thing.

[3Days_at_a_time]

Make sure that the suit meets the USCG buoyancy requirements for an Type 1 offshore PFD.

During my senior design project, we developed an amphibious attachment for our school's SAE Baja car. Senior Design was probably the most useful part of Engineering school for me. It was the design process that was learned in that class that most carried over to my professional career. Good Luck, work hard, and have fun. Congrats on making it this far, especially at such a prestigious institution. If you need any engineering guidance please feel free to contact me.

Regards,
Raymond Catania
MSME, CTO
Catania Enterprises
Consulting Services – Catania Enterprises

[dfelsent]

You may want to contact the Boston location of LRSE or Westerbeke Fishing Gear to get real world info from the people who sell and service them. They also provide training.

If you need I have a dry suit and a couple of survival suits you could look at. I’m local to MIT.

[Kijit]

Go down to the Sailing Pavilion and talk to Fran Charles, the sailing master, if you haven't done that yet. I bet he can put you in touch with some local folks that can give you some opinions.

Gerhard
MIT '82
Course 16
MIT Sailing Team (a long time ago)

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by robinw

Hi All,

I'm a mechanical engineering student at MIT in the US. I'm currently taking a class we call 2.009 Product Engineering Processes and it is one of the final classes that all MIT mechanical engineering students take before they graduate. It brings all the knowledge that we have learned throughout our time at MIT and brings it all together in the development of a real-world product.

This year, my team (Orange Team) is working to re-design the deck suits and survival suits often used in cold climate sailing, boating, and commercial fishing. Our current vision for this product is to create a device that is comfortable, provides ease of movement, has an internal heating mechanism/insulator, is waterproof, and has a flotation mechanism. We envision that this product will be worn at all times and will allow the user to survive for several hours in 0'C water.

Would anyone with experience in cold climate sailing/fishing/boating be able to comment on our current aspirations for this product? What sort of problems (if any) have you experienced with current market deck suits and survival suits? What attributes are you guys looking for the most in these types of products? Do you even wear these sort of products? If not, then why? Any other anecdotes related to this type of product or problem would also be much appreciated.

Thank you,
MIT 2.009 Orange Team

I might suggest something with internal inflatable bladders to provide buoyancy and core temp..

[wrwakefield]

Hello Team Orange,

I have been sailing and living aboard off and on [now fulltime] between 56° and 62°N for several decades on a couple of sailing/cruising boats [2 with outside only helms. My current boat has 2 helms- one outside, and one in the pilothouse where climate is controlled.]

Years ago, when I had to be outside 100% of the time while boating during foul or cool/cold weather conditions, I wore a Kokatat [sea kayaking/touring] Goretex drysuit [typically with a 300 weight fleece unisuit underneath].

I also sea kayak. That always requires a drysuit in cool water since a kayaker dresses for the water temperature...

The difficulty with my Kokatat dry suit is dumping heat during periods of exertion.

In the last two years, for boating [i.e., not kayaking...] I have changed over to the Ocean Rodeo Boss drysuit. Their design allows one to keep the suit on but pull your head out of the neck gasket— ostensively wearing it like a two piece foul weather suit. [Cooler, but no longer a drysuit...] They also have the best [easy to don and most comfortable] head and arm gasket design I have ever worn.

I would take a good look at the Ocean Rodeo design. They have really made dry suits comfortable and functional [good fit, lots of usable pockets, seamless one piece fleece under garment/ unisuit, etc.]

Regarding heat/warmth/insulation:

At below zero F temps, I have often wondered about trying one of the 12V DC heated unisuits cold weather motorcyclists rave about. That might be a good starting point for proactive heat.

Regarding passive insulation:

I believe that should be left to the wearer so they can layer undergarments as needed for the conditions. [This is for full time wear active use cases, not the don for immediate survival use case e.g., 'Gumby' suits.]

One important aspect of safety around cold water is protecting the head from cold shock [precipitating an initial gasp reflex— which most will find inconvenient while underwater...] Wearing a neoprene skull cap is an excellent preventative measure. Likewise for gloves...

Another resource you may find useful in your pre-design research phase is the Cold Water Boot Camp and the meaning of 1-10-1 with regard to cold water survival.

Regarding flotation:

Both the Kokatat and Boss dry suits provide some flotation on their own- adequate to prevent drowning in less sporty conditions. [The Boss has a manual oral inflation tube to increase bouancy if necessary...] Regardless, I always wear a PFD [typically self-inflating with harness; e.g., Spinlock 5D] on the outside of the dry suit.

I hope some of this may be useful for you.

Best wishes with your project.

Cheers! Bill [ME— Machine Design; class of... likely before you were born...]

[jmschmidt]

After watching hours of the "Deadliest Catch" I bought a red foul-weather suit and a red inflatable offshore vest/harness. Red seemed to show up on the sea's surface best of all from Coast Guard helicopters.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by jmschmidt

After watching hours of the "Deadliest Catch" I bought a red foul-weather suit and a red inflatable offshore vest/harness. Red seemed to show up on the sea's surface best of all from Coast Guard helicopters.

Not necessarily at night. Maybe florescent red or international orange.

[thinwater]

I once spent 6 hours in the water in a sailing dry suit as part of a test for an article. My body temperature actually went up. I spent several of the hours floating on my back reading, while some of the time was spent do require tests like swimming and boarding a dingy.


I frequently wear a dry suit in the winter.


Many very good comments and many factors to consider, but the main thing is breathability. If the air is over 50F and the wearer is active, it is difficult to wear enough fleece under it for the water temp and not cook.



One answer is ventilation. The Ocean Rodeo suit has one of the better opening mechanisms, with a built-in jacket to cover it. Handy when part of the time will be in low-risk activities, but not that helpful if you might fall in at any moment. I wonder if some system of valves could be developed, perhaps mounted on the shoulder, that would pump air through the suit when you move, but seal when wet. That might make an interesting project. The suits will natural pump air, if the wearer is moving.

Another possibility is an improved version of a Mustang-type exposure suit. Yes, you get wet, but design it so that it really seals up tight in the water. I'm not sure what I mean


Another problem is cost. Dry suits are expensive and may not hold up to commercial fishing. So are Mustang suits. Google Fladen suits. There are EU versions that are several times less expensive. Google the EN standard.




Also look at the variety of suits used in northern Europe for work around docks and North Sea wind farms. They have FAR more experience than US workers and sailors.

[Northbound44]

I learn sailing in the northern Canadian water (east Coast) and for me , the major issue was the weight of suit, the inside condensation, the time it takes to dry in humid environment and the resulting smell ( mildew).
The price for a good fool weather gear was also high.