What are my options when a marina goes WAY over their estimate?

[nuru05]

I had 2 windows replaced over the winter and just got the bill. I have had issues with this marina running up the clock in the past (71 hours to install a premade bimini) when I wasn't smart enough to make them give me an estimate. This time I thought I was smart and had them give me an estimate. They quoted me 4-6 hours per window so a total of 8-12 (@$180/hr, ya it's insane but I was in a bind) per window plus parts.

I just got the bill and was told "It was a lot harder than we expected so I was as nice as I could be on the bill" they charged me $4500 for labor so 25 hours which is more than double their high estimate.

Do I really have a leg to stand on and fight them on it? I was not notified about the overage until when I got the bill. If I had known it would be that high I would have opted to just have lewmar make a custom window that was slightly larger and had them cut out the hole. That way I would have gotten opening windows in a modern frame (that can be replaced or repaired later on) instead of just fixed glass in the original frames.

[SailingHarmonie]

You can always negotiate. Make them an offer. But you don't really have any legal recourse if it was clearly an estimate, and didn't have an upper limit that required approval to go above. 25 hours is not patently outrageous, depending on exactly what the windows install is like. Live and learn.

If you are just now, in late July, getting a bill for work done over the winter layup, that speaks volumes to sloppy business practices, if nothing else. Maybe you could start by asking to see the timesheets where the hours were tabulated? If their time counting is up to the same standards as their billing, they might not have anything, and are just making it up as they go. Might shift the balance of power in the negotiations.

[FlyingScot]

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Literally what the heck are you still using these people for?

[SailingHarmonie]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Literally what the heck are you still using these people for?

I didn't say that, but the thought did cross my mind...

I do understand however that sometimes people do not have a lot of choices in where they get work done. And bad businesses thrive that exactly that kind of environment.

[thinwater]

I swear this sounds made up.


I'd suggest switching to walking or at least a pastime with simple equipment. It's just going to get worse.

[nuru05]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Literally what the heck are you still using these people for?

Honestly I didn't want to be but when I had them look at the windows last fall we scraped off some of the silicone that was globbed on by the previous owner and the window started leaking like crazy (like needed to swap the bucket halfway through the night) and globbing on new silicone as a temp fix wasn't working so it had to be tarped until it was fixed. I figured I was safe with an estimate but obviously I was mistaken.

They did to top notch work and have a great reputation in the area, but you're going to pay for it. I called them this spring ( I live out of state) to have them verify my anchor chain size before I ordered a new one and they billed me $85 for checking it. Overall I'm glad to not be dealing with them anymore after this as we have moved on from the area.

[cram]

Hatches or glazed in plexiglass? I've done plexiglass before, it's a pita. 10-15 hrs per window is very reasonable.

[BlueH2Obound]

You don't say where you are, but in many states, Washington State in this example, consumer protection laws state that if the cost of a job goes over 10% above the quoted price, than the customer has to be notified, and approve the increased cost. The shop is required to note time and date of customer approval of the increase on their invoice.

If you are in Washington State, or a location with similar laws, you can request that they provide you with the documentation of your approval of the increase, and if they can't, or if they attempt to charge more, or hold your boat in the yard until you pay the increased bill, they are in violation of the law. Different avenues of attack to go through from there, ie; small claims court, Office of the Attorney General etc. I've used them both, not difficult, and always had the outcome I desired.

Best of luck going forward.

https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=46.71.025

[sethducati1299]

Consumer Protection Lawyers will usually provide a free consultation. Have all your paperwork ready. Exactly what rights you have depends on what state you are in, but in the USA there are federal laws protecting consumers.

[Shanachie]

You don't say how large the portlights are but, unless they are those giant ones on large powerboats, that's way out of line.


Over the last couple of years, I have replaced four fixed portlights and three hatch lights on my sailboat. Catalina cut the replacements for me on the portlights and Lewmar did the hatches.


The total cost for the lenses was maybe $1,500. I followed the usual Internet instructions for installing with superstrong tape and adhesive. Those were less than $100.


The hatch lenses were simple and took me maybe an hour or so each, including removing the old ones. The portlights were a little trickier and took a little longer.


Remember, I am an amateur DIYer. If I had been a pro, it would have gone much more quickly.


My suggestion, if you want to avoid getting ripped off, is either to buy some books and learn to do it yourself or locate a reliable contractor who can become your go-to guy.


Good contractors, although never cheap, generally don't cheat regular customers because they want your business on a regular basis.

[Redboat]

Until last year I worked in a marina office where I prepared the paperwork pre and post work for the shop.

The sign of a good shop is they are very close to knowing just how long it will take to do a job, factoring in known unknowns.

My boss would always stop work when something was discovered that would
run up the bill, either in labor or parts. At that point we would contact the customer to explain the situation and ask if they would like to proceed.

As long as we were 100% transparent about it and proactive, we never had anyone complain about cost, even if it was double the estimate. They always had to option for us to put it back together and take it elsewhere, paying us only for what we did.

One of my jobs was to seek out the best price for parts that would make us a profit without gouging the customer. Sometimes a project took longer due to longer time to get parts, but again, as long as we explained why, (lower cost but longer shipping time) no one complained.

If they are consistently going way over budget and not being transparent, go elsewhere.

[sailorboy1]

of course once the yard started the work, they pretty much owned the OP

[mvweebles]

Many states have laws that prevent 'gaming' the word 'estimate.' In Florida for example, if the actual repair exceeds the estimate by more than $10 or 10% (but not greater than $50), the shop must get separate approval.

Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

Applies to motor vehicles - whether a boat is a motor vehicle is a bit of an open item, but I would think small claims court would side with you given the circumstances - 'motor vehicle' is not a defined term so is not further limited.

59.909 Notification of charges in excess of repair estimate; unlawful charges; refusal to return vehicle prohibited; inspection of parts.—
(1) In the event that:
(a) The written repair estimate contains only an estimate for diagnostic work necessary to estimate the cost of repair and such diagnostic work has been completed;
(b) A determination is made by a motor vehicle repair shop that the actual charges for the repair work will exceed the written estimate by more than $10 or 10 percent, whichever is greater, but not to exceed $50; or
(c) An implied partial waiver exists for diagnostic work, as described in s. 559.905(5), and such diagnostic work has been completed,
the customer shall be promptly notified by telephone, telegraph, mail, or other means of the additional repair work and estimated cost thereof. A customer so notified shall, orally or in writing, authorize, modify, or cancel the order for repair.

[DEAN2140]

I assume you have possession of the boat, which is unusual (no cash, no splash) but allows you to negotiate a fair price. Their only recourse is to file a claim in court, which is unlikely. Hang tough.

[thinwater]

This is one of the reasons the forum is full of DIY enthusiasts. Ad I don't mean to wholly bash marinas in saying this. Boats are hard to work on. Unlike replacing the alternator on your Chevy, they can't look up an estimate in a book. Scope creep is common (rot or similar). Keeping good help is tough because of the seasonal nature of the work.



I have replaced windows (framed and unframed) and there is a considerable range in difficulty. They can pop right out. You can spend a miserable half a day with a heat gun removing the old VHB tape, and that's working at my pace; an unmotivated hourly guy would take 2-3 times that long. The new window need to be cut and fitted. There may be fiberglass work.



That said, a good shop should have been able to spot these issues and not be surprised. I wasn't. If it was a problem they had not seen before, they shouldn't have been learning on the customer's dime; you take the hit when you are learning as you go. I promise you if the window had popped right out the bill would have been for 12 hours even if it took less. Human nature?


There are only a few crafts I sub out, and only off firm quotes (canvas and cleaning the bottom).